UOA 06 Dmax @68K 25,000m on RTS 5-40 w/FS2500

[Dozerboy]

I didn't intend to go this long without a UOA, but... I haven't done anything to cause the copper to shoot up that I can think of. I had a small amount of sludge in my bypass filter canister. The oil looks good to me, but maybe 25K is to long on RTS. Thoughts? Link to my last UOA @ 16.5K the copper was only at 6ppm

Shell Rotella T 5W/40 (Syn) 3qt make up oil 25,000 Miles on the oil FS 2500 filter Ci-4 and Cj-4 mix

Copper increased considerably in the latest sample from your 2500. If you've had any brass/bronze
parts added to your engine, that may explain what we found. Regardless, this level makes the oil abrasive
so we suggest having it changed out. This may show a problem developing so we suggest resampling at
5,000 miles on the fresh oil to monitor. The oil itself was in good shape physically and was free of any
harmful contaminants. The TBN is still strong at 6.2 so there is no lack of active additive in this oil.
Hopefully copper improves with the oil change.

ALUMINUM 4
CHROMIUM 2
IRON 50
COPPER 378
LEAD 3
TIN 1
MOLYBDENUM 21
NICKEL 1
MANGANESE 1
SILVER 0
TITANIUM 0
POTASSIUM 2
BORON 34
SILICON 11
SODIUM 3
CALCIUM 3109
MAGNESIUM 209
PHOSPHORUS 1280
ZINC 1642
BARIUM 0




cSt Viscosity @ 100°C 75.1
SUS Viscosity @ 210°F 14.27
Flashpoint in °F 420
Fuel % Antifreeze % 0.0
Water % 0.0
Insolubles % 0.3
TBN 6.2

 

[JAG]

Thank goodness you have a bypass filter. The viscosity is amazingly close to virgin viscosity. TBN and all wear metals except copper are great. Is this your first UOA? If you have others you/we could compare the copper wear rates (PPM/1K miles).

 

[Dozerboy]

This is my 3rd UOA on this CI the UOA on 7-18-09 was the first.

 

[JAG]

The copper wear rate did jump big time. It's likely chemically related, such as loss of copper corrosion protection from too high TAN (possible even when TBN looks stout) and/or insufficient copper deactivator additives. What oils were used in the previous 2 UOAs?

 

[D-Roc]

Minus the copper, that uoa looks excellent...good results from RTS.

 

[Dozerboy]

The other UOA where Delo400 15-40

 

[JAG]

Wow, then kudos to Delo 400 15W-40.

 

[dnewton3]

I must say everything but the Cu looks good.

Since there isn't anything "new" in the lube environment, I'd have to susepct somthing is amiss.

Two potential causes;
1) lab error (always possible)
2) mechanical issue such as particle streak, or large event pending


Here's is where it's not time to panic, but time to start diligent thought.

I suggest a fresh sump run for 6k miles (because 6k miles is the "universal average" for the Dmax reports). Get yourself as close to "normal" as possible. Change your oil, but don't change your brand/grade.

Let's see if the Cu in your next UOA comes down immediately (which would indicate to me a possible report error on this UOA), or if it trends down (particle streak) or it stays high (mechanical issue).

 

[Dozerboy]

How offend to lab error really happen? I have seen this suggested before several times.

 

[dnewton3]

I cannot give you a good answer to that. To really know for sure, you'd have to have a "test system" with known inputs and control samples. Do lab errors happen? I'm confident that they do. How often? I don't really know.

Here's a UOA from Arka:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1858589&page=1
Notice his Cu spike. Potential lab error, but subsequent results are not in yet.

Yet another UOA from a Dmax with high Cu:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1845093&page=1

However, there are other high Cu reports:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1690299&page=1
this one, because there are other high wear metals, really is likely that a mechanical problem is afoot.

Here's a Ford with high Cu:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1781345#Post1781345


Sometimes this seems to happen quite often in Dmax trucks, and perhaps the oil cooler has a tendency to flake Cu occasionally, with no warning or reason. We all know the Cu is high on a new Dmax, but there are plenty of well-cared-for Dmax trucks that have Cu readings spike out of nowhere well into their lifecycle.


This is why I say it's important to have historical UOAs, and to not panic when one reading goes crazy in one UOA. I cannot assure you that your most recent UOA is or is not a lab error at this point. But like I said, you can narrow your inputs, and test again, and then have a better view of the potential sources.

 

[Johnny]

I would do what dnewton3 suggest, but I would personally not go past 15K on oil changes no matter what oil you use.

 

[Craig750]

Originally Posted By: Dozerboy
The other UOA where Delo400 15-40


The Moly and Boron ratios for Delo 400 15w40 seem to be different between samples and the Boron is higer than the Moly on two of the three samples.

Delo 400 use to have more Moly than boron about 50%.

Were the Delo samples all CI4+ ?

 

[ihookem1]

I use Amsoil 3000 5w30 @ 8 bucks a qt. and your numbers are as good as mine. Same motor but in an 05. Except I never had copper near that high.

 

[Mokanic]

Can't blame it on Schaeffer oil.