Honda MTF, 8707 miles, 2004 S2000

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I had Blackstone test this sample and a virgin sample (they are different batches though). That may explain some of the inconsistencies as far as additives go, or it may be because I had tried a mix of AMS MTF/MTG a couple of fills before this tested sample.

2004 Honda S2000 6MT with 55,149 miles on it.
Honda MTF has 8707 miles on it. The performance of this lube was well into the decline mode and should have been changed out around 6000 miles.

Element/UOA/VOA
Aluminum/1/0
Chromium/0/0
Iron/11/0
Copper/2/0
Lead/13/0
Tin/4/0
Moly/2/0
Nickel/0/0
Manganese/1/0
Silver/0/0
Titanium/0/0
Potassium/2/0
Boron/7/0
Silicon/9/5
Sodium/2/0
Calcium/2964/3042
Magnesium/30/0
Phosphorus/1246/1168
Zinc/1532/1329
Barium/0/0

SUS visc @ 210F/45.9/50.8
cSt visc @ 100C/5.99/7.50
Flashpoint/370F/380F
Water%/0.0/0.0
Insolubles%/0.1/0.0
TAN/4.0/3.7
 
SUS visc @ 210F UOA: 45.9/ VOA: 50.8
cSt visc @ 100C UOA: 5.99/ VOA: 7.50

The Honda MTF is much thinner after only 8700 miles. May be Amsoil or Redline MTF are better than Honda MTF for 20-30k miles.
 
The tranny goes from shifting like butter to notchy. It is very easy to tell when the fluid is shot.

Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Decline mode??? What makes you say that? I'm not sure any oil would need replacing at 6kmi intervals
 
I have tried a few different lubes in mine. Some work well for awhile but don't last. Some are bad from start to finish. I'm not aware of anyone getting 20-30K miles out of a fill with any lube, unless they just don't care how the shifting feels. AMSOIL MTF has a following that report it lasts about twice as long as Honda MTF, but maybe not as smooth for shifting.

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
SUS visc @ 210F UOA: 45.9/ VOA: 50.8
cSt visc @ 100C UOA: 5.99/ VOA: 7.50

The Honda MTF is much thinner after only 8700 miles. May be Amsoil or Redline MTF are better than Honda MTF for 20-30k miles.
 
I can't definitively say that this gear box is harder on oil than others. It could be though. The engine is designed for higher RPM operating ranges than most other cars, and requires picking the right gear to stay in the power band (lots of shifting). But that's what makes the car so fun. You actually have to drive the car, which is what sports car ownership is all about.

Another thing to consider is the nature of the gear box. It's as close to perfect as I've ever driven. I don't think you could draw up a better 6MT for this car. Maybe it's just easier to notice a blemish on perfect, than it is on mediocre.
 
"AMSOIL MTF has a following that report it lasts about twice as long as Honda MTF, but maybe not as smooth for shifting."

That would be my experience with it in my '06 Civic. The stock Honda MTF had a better feel in warm weather ... but the Amsoil MTF is better year 'round.

I chose Honda MTF for my "new" (2005) Honda S2000. The car has 15,000 miles on it and the tranny is VERY notchy and despite being gently driven (still wearing the original tires which are in very good shape) it is desperate for a tranny oil change.

I'm in the process of seeking out Chevron 80W-90 for the diff. When I get that, and all the crush washers, I'm going to do both.
 
Here is a good description of whats going on in the transmission that could be causing oil fatigue/stress greater than what may occur in your average 4 banger transmission. I saw it on a S2000 discussion board from 2001:

"I am the woodwork and I work for American Honda.
I am writing this to hopefully help S2000 owner/drivers understand the importance of shifting properly to minimize the damage to 2nd gear synchronizer rings. I'm not the Warranty Police but will from time to time quote warranty policy when I read things like "Shifting without the clutch".

My overall objective being in the woodwork is to keep S2000 owners from hurting themselves and hurting their cars. Everytime a transmission or engine gets replaced in an S2000 I get the part. I've seen a lot of damaged transmissions.

Before flaming me please read this and keep an open mind.

You have an engine that revs to 9000 RPM. That means that the transmission mainshaft and clutch disk are also revving to 9000 RPM. When you disengage the clutch (push in the pedal) to shift from first to second the engine and the transmission are disconnected. The engine will slow down from compression when you lift off the throttle. The mainshaft of the transmission is not connected to the engine any more so it is freewheeling in the transmission. Given enough time the mainshaft will slow down but not as fast as the engine. The countershaft is connected to the rear wheels and the speed stays constant during the shift.

When you shift into 2nd gear the synchronizer of the 2nd gear must SLOW DOWN the transmission mainshaft to match the speed that the engine WILL be going when the shift is completed and the clutch is engaged.

The transmission mainshaft and the clutch disk together weigh 19.75 lbs. (not including the pressure plate and flywheel that are connected to the engine) When you shift from 1st to 2nd at 9000 RPM the engine speed drops to 5900. That means that the little brass synchronizer rings have to push on the 2nd gear to slow the mainshaft from 9000RPM to 5900 RPM. It not only has to slow down the mainshaft it has to do it in the time that it takes you to shift. So if you have a tendency to shift fast you may be making the sleeve blow past the synchro rings before it has a chance to do it's job and it will smash into the 2nd gear.

The early '00 cars needed a little change to the sleeve to make the synchros work a little harder. That is what the new parts in the service bulletin are for. Cars after VIN YT006255 already have the new parts. Grinding in a car produced later than 6255 is possible if the synchros have been damaged and now are not able to slow down the mainshaft properly.

Shifting without the clutch, or, shift too quickly and not letting the synchros do their job may permanently damage the gear, sleeve and synchros and make the 2nd gear grind more often.

It makes sense that if shifting at 6000 makes the engine speed drop to 4300 RPM, (1700) into 2nd gear then you should give the 2nd gear synchro twice the time to do the shift from 9000 RPM.

If your car does grind once in a while you may not want the transmission removed, disassembled and a new 2nd gear put in. If it does it quite often, show it to the dealer and have it replaced.

If you hesitate for another 1/2 second while putting constant pressure on the shifter while the 2nd gear synchro does it's job, I'll bet many of your cars would not grind any more. Try it. You might like it.

Added 5-2-03:
Skipping gears:
I have seen many 6th gear sleeves that have been damaged.

The typical story is this: Stop light, 1st gear, engage the clutch, rev to 9,000 RPM, shift quickly to 2nd, rev to 9,000 RPM, same into 3rd, look down and find the car going 80 MPH on a city street and the engine noise is screaming, recognize that any cop is going to write a ticket. Shift to 6th quickly to lower engine noise.

Dragging the mainshaft speed down from 9,000 RPM to 4,000 when going from 3rd to 6th takes time. 6th gear has only a single synchro ring and it doesn't like it. It will grind if you are shifting hard and fast. By shifting hard the synchro ring does not have time to slow down the main-shaft and the sleeve will slip over the synchro and grind the gear. If the sleeve is ground enough in 6th then it will not slide the other way to engage 5th.

So if it is hard to get your car into 5th or 6th it may be because the sleeve is being damaged by skipping gears. Hope this makes sense.


Woodwork "
 
Here are some more tidbits offered via Q&A later in the thread:

I wrote this on Sunday and realize that I'm behind the thread already. I'll try to catch up.

Hi there,

I reread my post and probably wasn't descriptive enough. I'll try to answer some of the questions here and then during the week will post a new thread and some photos of the mainshaft and countershaft. I'm only on this BB a couple times a week, I'll try to get back more.

When driving with customers I have notice that they feel the need to shift very fast most probably because of the adrenalin flowing and the engine noise and the tach making so many orange light bars and to try to get back on the throttle as if in a competitive atmosphere. I have been able to make many transmissions grind by trying to shift too fast and bang it into gear.

If your transmission is grinding take it to the dealer, the dealer is under contract to repair problems that exist, thus the need to show the dealer that there is a problem. It is the dealers responsibility to prove to American Honda that there was a problem so that they can get paid. If you want something repaired because you had a friend get something replaced but it isn't bad on your car you will encounter resistance from the dealer.

Here are some of the Questions that were written:

>>VTEC Racer
Q. My question is though, why doesn't Honda just use stronger metals?
A. Good Question. I'm not a design engineer, just a ttom-of-the-totem-pole-service-engineer. The car is made to exact specifications. Definitely an option to change the spec. of the material.

>>Cyber Logic
Two questions for you.
Q 1. So what you are saying is give it an extra split second before shifting into second?
A 1. Yes, just a slight hesitation while going into 2nd with constant pressure. Don't stop the rearward motion of the shifter until there is resistance going into 2nd, then keep the same pressure until the synchro does it's job, when it is finished slowing down the mainshaft it will fall into 2nd gear.
Q 2. I have only had my car now for 1500 miles. It has prolly happened 10-20
times...should I take my car in because of the damage I have done to my tranny or
should the internals of the tranny probably have held up pretty well to have not hurt
anything.
A 2. My suggestion would be to drive the car, if the 2nd gear is damaged it will show. If you continue to drive the car, But take an extra half second to shift into second it might not grind. If it does, take it to the dealer and show them.


>>John MI blk/blk '01
Q What causes an occasional "catch" between 1st and 2nd and from 2nd to 3rd? The "catch" could be described as subtle (not a grind) but is annoying. Is this what people refer to as notchy? Seems to happen when ambient temperatures are high and just in low rpm normal driving. Clutch pedal is fully depressed. Every shift is like this: let the rrr's drop some, push clutch fully in, pull shifter slowly and pause briefly going through neutral position and wait for the transmission to give you a sign that it's ok to put it into the next gear. I wish I didn't have to concentrate so much on the shifting. This is my 6th Honda and my 3rd Honda with a manual transmission so I'm hoping that the transmission is just "breaking in" and eventually will shift like butter like other Honda's. My Honda has 4000 miles. Thank you for the insight.

A. The "Catch" or knotchy feeling is the synchros doing their job before they let you slide the sleeve into second gear. When the NSX came out with the knotchy triple cone synchros this was very noticeable. If you bring the rrrr's up then push in the clutch, then pull with constant pressure the shifter from first to second it will fall into second when the main shaft speed is the same as the second gear on the countershaft.

>>cdelena
Q. OK, it makes sense. But I shift to 3,4, and 5 at the redline and don't have a problem with grinds. And even though I had the TSB work done, when the transmission gets very hot I still get the 1-2 grind usually at 4-5K rpm.
A. C: You and I have talked about this transmission before, Every transmission has it's own personality (tolerance stacking) and will feel a little different than the next. If you look at the gear ratios in the FAQ you will notice that the other gears don't have as big a step as 1-2 does. This would explain that the difference in rotational speed is not as great for the 2-3, 3-4 shifts, therefore taking less time to slow down the mainshaft. If it grinds enough and you are ready to have the transmission removed, take it to the dealer.
Q. I understand the issues, I just don't think the box works like it should.. yet.
A. I'm not disagreeing with you. That's why I'm here trying to make things better. If it grinds, take it to the dealer and have them put in another 2nd gear and sleeve.

#4 cyl is still under investigation.


>>RandyP
Q This is an unacceptable band-aid for a design flaw! Fast shifting is essential in a car such as ours. If you read between the lines, he is saying that the synchro-pac TSB is not 100% effective at eliminating the grind. These 1-2 gear grinds are NOT driver error.
A You are entitled to your opinion on "design flaws" and reading between the lines.


Thank you for allowing me to be here, I have met a few of you and really enjoy your enthusiasm.
I'll be out of the office Monday, will reply to more later in the week.

Best regards,

Woodwork
 
And some more:

I'm afraid that I've created a monster.

Some of you really like your car even tho it grinds once in a while and some of you seem to hate your car (or Honda or both).

All I intended to do is say: There is a way to do it wrong, there is a way to do it right.

What I have found is that those of you who "shift hard and fast" think that everyone shifts that way, and those of you who shift "soft and fast" think everyone shifts that way.

One thing I have learned from 11 years of driving cars with customers is that there are personalities in cars and there are personalities in people. Every one of them is different.

I have suggested several times that if your car (is not heavily modified) is grinding take it to the dealer and get it fixed. Some of you have sent me a private email with a specific situation and I'm trying to work on it.

Bottom line: (assumption that your car is stock)
Your car should not grind. If it does take it to the dealer for repair. Once it is repaired shift "soft and fast".

You guys are great, I love reading this BB

Woodwork
 
I recently changed out the new Honda MTF II after only 500 miles that I replaced this UOA sample fill with. The MTF II just wasn't up to the Texas summer heat this year, so what did I use? Well, I looked around my garage and saw 2 orphan quarts of Schaeffers #703 10W-30 engine oil that were looking for a home. They have been in my tranny now for about 300 miles and I think there are several improvements in shifting so far. 2nd gear shifts better, and all the gears seem easier to find. It is a little more notchey, but not bothersome. I feel more confident with lube in there over the MTF II because the tranny feels less fragile. I plan to do a UOA at the end of this fill, just to make sure there is no harm being done for extended use. Honda says it's OK to use 10W-30 engine oil if MTF if not available.
 
Thanks for posting that, IndyMac. I tend to be a slow-ish shifter ... but after driving my 2003 Nissan Sentra SE-R SpecV, I got in the habit of coming out of 1st, pausing in neutral and then going into second.

Doing that with the S2000 ... I realize I may not be helping the S2000 as I am not applying the slow, constant pressure as I go into gear.

I must adapt my 1-2 procedure to the recommendations above and see how it goes.
 
Shifting in my S2000 ... especially the 1-2 shift ... has improved markedly since I switched to 1, smooth, slow(ish) motion. Thanks.
 
I know one reason I eliminated the 2nd gear crunch on my 02MY s2k was by me extending the clutch rod a tad. It allows you to disengate the clutch a tad sooner in the shift before you pull the shifter. It raises the engagement point a bit, but my shifting has been perfectly smooth ever since.

I am going to try out GM Synchromesh fluid this week, it was a highly recommended tranny fluid accoring to Road Rage of s2ki, who reported to be a triboligist. Think it's worth trying with a tad bit higher viscosity it should take longer to thin out to the Honda MTF level. Road Rage also reported that it had a high quality base fluid.
 
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I don't recall the GM, AC Delco, or Pennzoil Synchromesh fluids being anything special in the S2000 or recommended by Road Rage.

Now, if you're talking about GM/AC Delco Synchromesh Friction Modified, that's a different story and worth a try. I have tried it a few times and it works pretty well. It just doesn't last very long.
 
Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
I don't recall the GM, AC Delco, or Pennzoil Synchromesh fluids being anything special in the S2000 or recommended by Road Rage.

Now, if you're talking about GM/AC Delco Synchromesh Friction Modified, that's a different story and worth a try. I have tried it a few times and it works pretty well. It just doesn't last very long.


Yes it was the GMSFM fluid that Road Rage was recommending as being a good fluid for the tranny. I would change my fluid once per season (no winter driving for me) and that wouldn't be more than 3-5k miles. Maybe it would work.
 
I think you'll be pleased with that OCI using GMSMFM. I found Honda MTF II to be better than GMSMFM, but GMSMFM to be better than MTF I. But I can't over-emphasize enough that picking a tranny fluid is very subjective in this car.
 
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