anti drainback valve question

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
I would venture that it most assuredly falls within the limits of a nitrile ADBV over the full duration of the OEM recommended interval. For some, that would have a 12-15k durability standard. We also know that most nitrile valves distort when cold after about 3k. Their hot oil holding time is probably quite long.


Agreed, and they certainly don't hold as well when subjected to ridiculous cold, either. They can be pretty stiff at -40 C; then again, so is the oil.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
I have seen reasonable results, however, with nitrile, in keeping oil in the filters.


Those that can experience start up rattle typically will with a nitrile ADBV if left in service long enough. They tend to fatigue @ 3k+/-. If you never experience start up ratter ..and go beyond a certain number of heat cycles with a nitrile ..then you just aren't going to experience start up rattle.

Quote:
Obviously, the lower the temperature, the greater the disparity in the performance between nitrile and silicone.




Well, sure, but it's not found to be related to ambient in my experience. That is, the distortion (rigidity would have been a better term use) doesn't require anything beyond ambient temps. It will perhaps sound worse when your oil can't easily accelerate from a static stationary thick mass to whatever volume the oil pump is putting out. The stuff just isn't going to instantaneously go from zero to whatever. The pump relief will probably open and your time to pressure may be protracted.

Quote:
How many carmakers actually require an ADBV when they come up with specifications for oil filters?


Now? Pretty much all of them. Chevy was the last hold out that I'm aware of in terms of our domestic types. Just about every application that I can think of.

Quote:
Ford's 300s didn't "require" an ADBV.


I would think that you would be in early Ford 240 if you're speaking of the in line 6. The 300 came out way after the FL1A was spec'd ..at least from my memory. Fewer part numbers for many apps. Engines once had only bypass filters too.

Quote:
If oil drains out of the filter because of no ADBV or a cold ADBV, it's going to bring the oil out of the galleries with it.


You're assuming that there is a substantial oil column above the filter in those without ADBV. Again, with the valve, if there is such a column of oil, it will be slowed. Those without one will most likely be vertically oriented and not have a substantial oil column to process in the reverse bias flow. That is, it's just as likely that the internal configuration of the galleries will let the oil drain out the mains or whatever.

I am unfamiliar with your Audi, but I imagine that it shares a few part numbers with a number of VW's, BMW's, and who knows what else that do require them.

There are filters for some Porsche apps (iirc) where there are two checks. This would be about the only leg one could stand on for the OEM desiring to keep the filter full and it may have just as much to do with the oil pump or sump design than anything else. Those they don't want to drain in either direction. There are exceptional terms and conditions to everything.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Well, sure, but it's not found to be related to ambient in my experience. That is, the distortion (rigidity would have been a better term use) doesn't require anything beyond ambient temps. It will perhaps sound worse when your oil can't easily accelerate from a static stationary thick mass to whatever volume the oil pump is putting out. The stuff just isn't going to instantaneously go from zero to whatever. The pump relief will probably open and your time to pressure may be protracted.


No, the distortion doesn't matter so much except by cycles. However, the silicone will seal better. I'm talking about massively low temperatures, not just around the freezing mark. Then again, when it's -40 C, there's going to be startup noise, and the ADBV is the least of one's worries at that temperature. As you said, it's simply not going to pump well.

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
I would think that you would be in early Ford 240 if you're speaking of the in line 6. The 300 came out way after the FL1A was spec'd ..at least from my memory. Fewer part numbers for many apps. Engines once had only bypass filters too.

The CFL1 was a specified filter for the 300 at the time, and was made. At the time, the FL1A was marketed as the high end filter. The CFL1 didn't make it much past the middle to late eighties, if I recall correctly.

Originally Posted By: Garry Allan
You're assuming that there is a substantial oil column above the filter in those without ADBV. Again, with the valve, if there is such a column of oil, it will be slowed. Those without one will most likely be vertically oriented and not have a substantial oil column to process in the reverse bias flow. That is, it's just as likely that the internal configuration of the galleries will let the oil drain out the mains or whatever.


Siphoning action can move the oil in other directions, too. A vertical column would obviously have gravity's help in various circumstances. Certainly, a substantial column with no ADBV has a much greater potential of movement.

Originally Posted By: Garry Allan
I am unfamiliar with your Audi, but I imagine that it shares a few part numbers with a number of VW's, BMW's, and who knows what else that do require them.


That's hard to say. I know there certainly are VW applications. If there are Benz or BMW applications, they're not going to get an ADBV, at least not on German Bosch, Mahle, or Mann filters. I've tried them all, and none of them have one. If I recall correctly, the American Bosch has one, but the German one certainly does not.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
No, the distortion doesn't matter so much except by cycles.

Quote:
The CFL1 was a specified filter for the 300 at the time, and was made. The CFL1 didn't make it much past the middle to late eighties, if I recall correctly.


Purolator was the only one out of all the usual suspects to actually have a xref for the number. Fram never heard of it.

Quote:
At the time, the FL1A was marketed as the high end filter.


I really tend to think this is "at one time". I can't see this filter being viable beyond the later 60's, but that's just me. Ford has marketed a number of upgrades on the FL1A. There was a heavy duty version (something like FL1AXHD or XDFL1A) and the racing filter ..which apparently wasn't like most racing filters. It was actually a better filter and not a sieve.

Quote:
If there are Benz or BMW applications, they're not going to get an ADBV, at least not on German Bosch, Mahle, or Mann filters.


I find this odd. There is no other purpose for this filter to be produced. I don't think there's (with the exception of one or two CASE references) one domestic application for it.

http://www.wixfilters.com/filterlookup/PartApplications.asp?Part=51191

Same 30lb+/- bypass rating ..and ADBV

Part Number: 51191
UPC Number: 765809511910
Principal Application: Audi (95-06), Volkswagen (77-00, 05), Case, Fendt Tractors, Komatsu, M.A.N., Renault Trks.
All Applications
Style: Spin-On Lube Filter
Service: Lube
Type: Full Flow
Media: Paper
Height: 5.178
Outer Diameter Top: 3.660
Outer Diameter Bottom: Closed
Thread Size: 3/4-16
By-Pass Valve Setting-PSI: 30
Anti-Drain Back Valve: Yes
Burst Pressure-PSI: 345
Max Flow Rate: 7-9 GPM
Nominal Micron Rating: 21

Gasket Diameters
Number O.D. I.D. Thk.
Attached 2.834 2.462 0.200

There are a few more that are all specific to Euro engines. Why in the heck would Wix waste the material where the Teutonic's gave up an opportunity to complicate something?

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

I wasn't trying to be confusing. I just reworded what you said about the lifetime of an ADBV for a certain OCI, where nitrile won't be as effective for as long as silicone. I think that's what I was saying, since confusing you now caused me to be confused.

Quote:
The CFL1 was a specified filter for the 300 at the time, and was made. The CFL1 didn't make it much past the middle to late eighties, if I recall correctly.


Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Purolator was the only one out of all the usual suspects to actually have a xref for the number. Fram never heard of it.


That doesn't surprise me. Purolator probably made it at the time. The last time I could buy a CFL1 was, like I said, back in the late 1980s. It was speced for 2.3L, 4.9L, 5.0L and so forth, alongside the FL1A. CFL1 was the standard choice, Fl1A the upscale version.

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
I really tend to think this is "at one time". I can't see this filter being viable beyond the later 60's, but that's just me. Ford has marketed a number of upgrades on the FL1A. There was a heavy duty version (something like FL1AXHD or XDFL1A) and the racing filter ..which apparently wasn't like most racing filters. It was actually a better filter and not a sieve.


Quite correct. It was only at one time. It obviously wasn't viable or it wouldn't have been discontinued. There weren't upgrades to the FL1A back then. FL1A was simply marketed as a long life filter and also had the ADBV. I believe they also said there was improved media, but I can't recall for sure.

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
I find this odd. There is no other purpose for this filter to be produced. I don't think there's (with the exception of one or two CASE references) one domestic application for it.

There are a few more that are all specific to Euro engines. Why in the heck would Wix waste the material where the Teutonic's gave up an opportunity to complicate something?


I agree with you. It is odd. As you pointed out, the Wix version does have the silicone ADBV. I've used the filter myself and have seen the ADBV, too.

The North American Bosch has the ADBV, the German one does not, nor do the Mahle or Mann versions. They have thread end bypass valves, and that's it - no ADBV. All I've ever used on the Audi are Wix, Bosch (American and German), Mahle, and Mann. The only ones to have the ADBV were American Bosch and Wix. I thought it was weird, too.

Is it Wix's standard manufacturing procedure to use a silicone ADBV, perhaps? Maybe they just put one in each filter as a matter of course. As for German complication or over-engineering, perhaps they got their fix with the bypass valves. They look like they could deflect a bullet.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Is it Wix's standard manufacturing procedure to use a silicone ADBV, perhaps?


For those who require them ..afaik, yes. Not all have threaded end bypasses. I believe there is one exception ..but I do not recall the number.

Quote:
As for German complication or over-engineering, perhaps they got their fix with the bypass valves. They look like they could deflect a bullet.


They probably cope in some other manner. I haven't a clue how.

Quote:
The last time I could buy a CFL1 was, like I said, back in the late 1980s. It was speced for 2.3L, 4.9L, 5.0L and so forth, alongside the FL1A. CFL1 was the standard choice, Fl1A the upscale version.


I have to think it was available through the 80's and spec'd last in the mid to late 60's ...but we've batted this back and forth a bit much ...so I'll just say "I find it odd"...and leave it at that.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
For those who require them ..afaik, yes. Not all have threaded end bypasses. I believe there is one exception ..but I do not recall the number.


The reason I asked is because I've never seen a modern Wix without a silicone ADBV. That's why I'm wondering if it's just their standard operating procedure. It certainly is one of the indicators of quality construction and is one of the reasons I use Wix without hesitation for any of my applications.

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
They probably cope in some other manner. I haven't a clue how.


It is rather strange, I must admit. It's especially odd to see an American Bosch with a silicone ADBV side by side with a German Bosch without one.

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
I have to think it was available through the 80's and spec'd last in the mid to late 60's ...but we've batted this back and forth a bit much ...so I'll just say "I find it odd"...and leave it at that.


I wish I had a manual for one of those vehicles handy. I do remember my LTD manual listed both the CFL1 and FL1A (marketed as I mentioned earlier) as the appropriate parts numbers, and that was a 1983 model. I would also surmise that other manufacturers (such as Wix and Fram) didn't bother making the cheaper CFL1 type anymore when the FL1A reflected modern oil filter trends. Back then, because of the attractive price, I was using a lot of AC Delco filters, and their version of the filter had the ADBV as well. In fact, that's why I was buying them - significantly cheaper than a CFL1, yet had the ADBV. That was before our Walmarts converted to the Orange Wall of Doom and Overinflated Prices.

If I recall correctly, the CFL1 was a hair under $5. The FL1A had a different price each time I bought one (anywhere from $5 to $9; they've stabilized now, over twenty years later, at about $7). The AC Delco was about $3 at Walmart.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
The reason I asked is because I've never seen a modern Wix without a silicone ADBV.


If it spec's one, it's silicon. AFAIK, there are no WIX® with nitrile.

 

[bigbird_1]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

If it spec's one, it's silicon. AFAIK, there are no WIX® with nitrile.


I doubt if any antidrainback valve in the world is made of silicon.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
The reason I asked is because I've never seen a modern Wix without a silicone ADBV.


If it spec's one, it's silicon. AFAIK, there are no WIX® with nitrile.


Okay, me neither. I've also never seen any modern Wix oil filter without a silicone ADBV, either. I mean that I can't find a Wix that lacks an ADBV, period.

 

[Gary Allan]

"e" - pitnickers

Quote:
I've also never seen any modern Wix oil filter without a silicone ADBV, either. I mean that I can't find a Wix that lacks an ADBV, period.


Part Number: 51061
UPC Number: 765809510616
Principal Application: Chevrolet and GMC Trucks (63-90) - (Two Quart Version is 51794)
All Applications
Style: Spin-On Lube Filter
Service: Lube
Type: Full Flow
Media: Paper
Height: 5.178
Outer Diameter Top: 3.660
Outer Diameter Bottom: Closed
Thread Size: 13/16-16
By-Pass Valve Setting-PSI: None
Beta Ratio: 2/20=11/27
Burst Pressure-PSI: 285
Max Flow Rate: 9-11 GPM
Nominal Micron Rating: 21

Gasket Diameters
Number O.D. I.D. Thk.
Attached 3.444 3.100 0.260

Then again, YOU could be looking at a Chevy CL1A

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Then again, YOU could be looking at a Chevy CL1A

That spec sheet has no ADBV? Okay, then we know they don't do it for everything. I admit it, I'm puzzled.

Since I do have substantial experience on the applications for which that Wix part is specified, I do recall no ADBV on them, but I haven't changed oil on such an animal since about 1989. I used only Wix on those applications, and there was no ADBV. I didn't know if the filter had been changed or not in the past twenty years.

Now you've made me curious. I'll have to check them out at my local supplier, who has a Wall o' Wix instead of an orange wall.

 

[Sayjac]

Quote:
The reason I asked is because I've never seen a modern Wix without a silicone ADBV.
There has been some discussion here recently about larger 'stand pipe' filters. AFAIK, the Wix/Napa filters that use the standpipe also use nitrile adbvs. Other standpipe filters from other makers like Baldwin also use nitrile.

The Wix numbers for these large filters is 51806 and 51460. Other than that, I have not seen a standard Wix with a nitrile adbv.

 

[Gary Allan]

Even the SYNTEQ Donaldson filters that fit gas engines use nitrile. They're all for HD commercial/industrial/ag use. It must be that silicone is a consumer oriented things to save the service manager some grief.

 

[Newtonville]

Pretty sure silicone can be made in any color, but black would identify it with o-rings, which are often nitrile. Don't think silicone seals better initially, but lasts better under exposure to oils. With a service schedule followed, everything is spec'd to that. When Aunt Ann forgets to change her oil for five years is different. Guess that is a long way to say what was said already.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
There has been some discussion here recently about larger 'stand pipe' filters. AFAIK, the Wix/Napa filters that use the standpipe also use nitrile adbvs. Other standpipe filters from other makers like Baldwin also use nitrile.

The Wix numbers for these large filters is 51806 and 51460. Other than that, I have not seen a standard Wix with a nitrile adbv.


I'll have to take a peek. I noticed the local Hastings (which make a bunch of truck ones, too) appear to be nitrile, too. I thought perhaps Wix had gone exclusively to silicone in all applications. The silicone is shown prominently on their website, and all the ones I've used over the past couple years have had silicone. But, as I said, I haven't changed oil in a 1990 or earlier GM truck for over twenty years.

 

[edwardh1]

I had a bought from amazon denso filter that was 6 mo old on the MAxima car, started getting tappet noise at start up, two mornings in a row in mild weather, a few weeks ago, swithched filter to local Napa wix. Maybe some online filters could be old??

 

[Newtonville]

If it is the Maxima with long standpipe filter mount, the Supertech filters with nitrile valve worked great on my old car. It really shouldn't matter what kind though, maybe the bypass valve is working wrong.