High Copper on Schaffers UOA

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Ok, so I read the article you mentioned, which was very informative...thank you. It mentioned that the copper typically happens in new engines less than 1,500 hours. My engine has almost twice that. (2,800 hours) The last 2 UOA's have shown significant CU and FE compared to similar engines, uasgage, mileage, etc. The last batch was run primarily on the interstate at 70MPH and no heavy towing. (Less than 5-6,000 LBS)Always cool down after a long run and don't flog on it until properly warmed up. Any other ideas?
 
Well, I dumped the most recent batch of Schaeffers after my last UOA showed a lot of CU. I replaced it with the Delo 400 LE that's on sale at Wal-Mart for $8.50 p/Gallon. I plan on resampling at 3,000 miles and see where the CU levels are at. The Schaeffers was in for a little over 1,000 miles. So, I would think that I should get a somewhat better idea on what's going on here. Could the high viscosity on the last UOA be too thick for the turbo bearings? I'm just taking a shot in the dark here.
 
I doubt it also, but I wanted to make a switch and do a process of elimination. If the oil isn't the problem, then would that mean the oil cooler or something else that has a copper makeup be on its way out? Maybe someone here knows what may be the cause of the copper.
 
Originally Posted By: 07GreyLBZ
Well, I dumped the most recent batch of Schaeffers after my last UOA showed a lot of CU. I replaced it with the Delo 400 LE that's on sale at Wal-Mart for $8.50 p/Gallon. I plan on resampling at 3,000 miles and see where the CU levels are at. The Schaeffers was in for a little over 1,000 miles. So, I would think that I should get a somewhat better idea on what's going on here. Could the high viscosity on the last UOA be too thick for the turbo bearings? I'm just taking a shot in the dark here.


I'd wait two OCI's before drawing any conclusions with the new oil. It is possible the Schaeffers oil isn't the best choice for your engine
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, but a 3000 mile OCI isn't going to give an accurate answer. Going by what I've learned here it is best to run an oil 2 OCI's before jumping to any conclusions. If your 3K sample shows an improvement in Cu that would be a good sign, if it doesn't then I would suggest re-sampling after 2 OCI's. JMO
 
Originally Posted By: 07GreyLBZ
I doubt it also, but I wanted to make a switch and do a process of elimination. If the oil isn't the problem, then would that mean the oil cooler or something else that has a copper makeup be on its way out? Maybe someone here knows what may be the cause of the copper.


I totally agree with you there. Switch oils and make sure it's not the oil :)
 
When my CU jumped from 173 to 305, that tells me that something is definatly not right somewhere whether it's the oil or something else. Does anyone know or have any experience with the possible mechanical problems that could be occuring here???
 
Tubo bearings may be a good call. Have you researched and/or posted a question on any of the vehicle/manufacturer forums?
 
Not as of this moment I haven't. Probably wouldn't be a bad idea though. Thanks for the advice on the manufactuer's sites.
 
First, I agree with the change to Delo. Not that I am blaming Amsoil or Schaeffers or any other expensive oil, but the key is to get as close as possible to "normal" in a UOA, and for Blackstone that is dino oil and 6.5k mile samples.

Next, it's OK to use the dino oil as a flush agent. Nothing says you have to do several OCIs with dino at 6k miles each. Although somewhat of a waste fiscally, you can run three consequtive dino oil OCIs at 2k miles each, to expediate the flush process. Then, after those short flushes, run a "normal" 6.5k mile OCI and sample. Part of the concept is to allow the engine to normalize to the chemisty of the host oil, but part of the concept is also to flush out the previous oils. You can accomplish both with short OCIs. AFTER that, then do a "normal" OCI and sample.

Further, and I'm not sure about this, so take this with a grain of salt, but are the bearings in the Dmax ceramic? I had heard this from another source, but I am unable to confirm. This would change our view of the turbo issue, perhaps? I'm the first to admit that I don't know much about the VGT turbo in the Dmax (and I even drive one!).
 
I'm wondering why Schaeffers is recommending adding #132 to their engine oils. Is there already not enough Moly in them? How does excess Moly affect Cu and other yellow metals in the engine?
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3

Further, and I'm not sure about this, so take this with a grain of salt, but are the bearings in the Dmax ceramic? I had heard this from another source, but I am unable to confirm. This would change our view of the turbo issue, perhaps? I'm the first to admit that I don't know much about the VGT turbo in the Dmax (and I even drive one!).



I was actually under the impression most manufacturers had moved over to ceramic turbo bearings...something I heard/read a while back.
 
Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
I'm wondering why Schaeffers is recommending adding #132 to their engine oils. Is there already not enough Moly in them? How does excess Moly affect Cu and other yellow metals in the engine?


#132 contains very little moly, check a VOA on it.
 
I was actually reading on the dieselplace forums about excessive CU on Amsoil samples. Some as high as 1,000 PPM!!!! It could very well be something in the High $$$ oils that gives the results that we're seeing. I also read that if the bearing are going out, then the tin and aluminum would also be high. As far as the type of bearings that are in the turbo, I will call my Chevy garage tomorrow and find out. It will be interesting to see what results the Delo will return on a UOA.
 
Is there a possibility that the #132 either has some copper in it or is causing some sort of reaction with the oil cooler? The viscosity has out of the 40 WT range on the high side. I was thinking that the 132 may've been the issue. But I guess the Delo UOA will tell the story whether or not the issue is lube or mechanical related. Any other ideas???
 
If they have an oil cooler like a Cummins, copper is typically from the leaching of the copper cooler. This is well documented in Cummins engines, and there is even a report from Cat regarding copper from cooler leaching.
 
The Duramax engines are well-known for oil cooler leaching until a certain point when they are new. This engine is well past new though as it has 68,000 miles and over 2,800 hours. It could very well be just the oil cooler leaching out, but I will see what the Delo UOA says this OCI. If it reads proportionally similar, then the oil isn't the issue. (I don't believe it is at this point, but I am going through the process of elimination.) I use Schaeffers in everything else on the truck, except the Allison. (Transynd). I am a firm believer in the Schaeffers product, but I also know that every product doesn't work in every vehicle for whatever reason.
 
Ok, the bearings in the turbo are ceramic. Blackstone seems to think that the oil cooler may have a crack developing based on both UOA's. Does anyone know if this would be likely? I haven't read anything about this being an issue anywhere.
 
A crack would show signs of antifreeze??

I had a spike in copper when I changed oils...different oils affect the cooler differently.
 
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