Are they know to cup more so than other brands?
Cooper Tires
- Thread starter Blumurder
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More specific, which model tire. Among brands you can have models that will cup and ones that won't.
The only experience I have with Cooper is with their CS4 Touring tire. All four of the ones I bought required a ridiculous amount of weight to balance.
I don't think you can ever blame cupping on the tire, though I suppose tires where the outside tread blocks are separated by large channels will be more prone to that happening on vehicles with alignment issues. Maybe they sell more tires with that tread design than some other manufacturers. If that's the case, then it's possible!
My only experience with Cooper tires: Years ago, when the factory tires on my 94 Dakota wore out at about 24,000 miles, I bought a set of white-letter Cooper Cobras. I put about 25,000 miles on them before trading the truck in, no tire problems whatever.
I don't like the term "cupping" because it is soooooo misused.
In the old, bias tire, days, "cupping" actually looked like a "cup" had scooped out some of the tread. That was caused by imbalance or a bad shock - and in those days, that was pretty common.
But today's radial tires don't show a single "cup" from the same cause. Plus, shocks and tires have gotten better and this isn't as much of a problem as it used to be.
I'm of the opinion that mis-alignment is now the leading cause of "irregular wear" (the term I prefer). Plus I do not think most folks are sophisticated enough to be able to tell the difference between alignment based irregular wear and the wear caused by a bad shock.
So now to the question at hand.
First, it is possible to generate irregular wear without any tread pattern whatsoever. This seems to be related to higher order vibration harmonics.
Those harmonics seem to be a function of the tire size (its physical dimensions), the uniformity of tha casing (which is somewhat related to the consisitency of the manufacturing process), and a lot to do with the tread pattern (which is somewhat related to manufacturing consistency, but mostly related to the design of the pattern itself).
Needless to say, straight ribbed tread patterns are pretty much immune to this - but you won't find any of those. Even the mildest of tread patterns has a shoulder pattern that includes some "lugs" in oder to qualify as "all season" - and those lugs get subjected to those vibrational harmonics.
My pet theory: Tread patterns where the pattern is more broken up, especially if the pattern forms a 45º angle across the face of the tread, will be more suseptible to irregular wear. Tread patterns with more "luggy" shoulders are more suseptible.
Frankly, I don't think the brand plays much of a role except to say that some manufacturers tend to use tread patterns that are more suseptible.
But there are several complicating factors making it very difficult to sort this all out.
In the old, bias tire, days, "cupping" actually looked like a "cup" had scooped out some of the tread. That was caused by imbalance or a bad shock - and in those days, that was pretty common.
But today's radial tires don't show a single "cup" from the same cause. Plus, shocks and tires have gotten better and this isn't as much of a problem as it used to be.
I'm of the opinion that mis-alignment is now the leading cause of "irregular wear" (the term I prefer). Plus I do not think most folks are sophisticated enough to be able to tell the difference between alignment based irregular wear and the wear caused by a bad shock.
So now to the question at hand.
First, it is possible to generate irregular wear without any tread pattern whatsoever. This seems to be related to higher order vibration harmonics.
Those harmonics seem to be a function of the tire size (its physical dimensions), the uniformity of tha casing (which is somewhat related to the consisitency of the manufacturing process), and a lot to do with the tread pattern (which is somewhat related to manufacturing consistency, but mostly related to the design of the pattern itself).
Needless to say, straight ribbed tread patterns are pretty much immune to this - but you won't find any of those. Even the mildest of tread patterns has a shoulder pattern that includes some "lugs" in oder to qualify as "all season" - and those lugs get subjected to those vibrational harmonics.
My pet theory: Tread patterns where the pattern is more broken up, especially if the pattern forms a 45º angle across the face of the tread, will be more suseptible to irregular wear. Tread patterns with more "luggy" shoulders are more suseptible.
Frankly, I don't think the brand plays much of a role except to say that some manufacturers tend to use tread patterns that are more suseptible.
But there are several complicating factors making it very difficult to sort this all out.
I have Cooper CS4's for about 30K miles now, the first thing I noticed was how little of balance weights they needed. They still ride great and grip well and are wearing very little.
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
My pet theory: Tread patterns where the pattern is more broken up, especially if the pattern forms a 45º angle across the face of the tread, will be more suseptible to irregular wear. Tread patterns with more "luggy" shoulders are more suseptible.
I'd go along with that. I've used Michelin's X Radial DT on a number of cars, and that tire does seem to be more prone to this. And I describe it as a "feather" or "sawtooth" on the outer inch or half-inch of the tread. This seems directly related to alignment. I played around with the camber alignment on my Dakota myself and through camber alone (though probably some unintended caster change as well), I was able to get the INSIDE of the tread to feather, rather than the outside.
But anyway, my experience correlates with your suggestion that those tread patterns that run at a 45-degree angle across the face are more prone to this type of wear.
My pet theory: Tread patterns where the pattern is more broken up, especially if the pattern forms a 45º angle across the face of the tread, will be more suseptible to irregular wear. Tread patterns with more "luggy" shoulders are more suseptible.
I'd go along with that. I've used Michelin's X Radial DT on a number of cars, and that tire does seem to be more prone to this. And I describe it as a "feather" or "sawtooth" on the outer inch or half-inch of the tread. This seems directly related to alignment. I played around with the camber alignment on my Dakota myself and through camber alone (though probably some unintended caster change as well), I was able to get the INSIDE of the tread to feather, rather than the outside.
But anyway, my experience correlates with your suggestion that those tread patterns that run at a 45-degree angle across the face are more prone to this type of wear.
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
I don't like the term "cupping" because it is soooooo misused.
In the old, bias tire, days, "cupping" actually looked like a "cup" had scooped out some of the tread. That was caused by imbalance or a bad shock - and in those days, that was pretty common.
But today's radial tires don't show a single "cup" from the same cause. Plus, shocks and tires have gotten better and this isn't as much of a problem as it used to be.
I'm of the opinion that mis-alignment is now the leading cause of "irregular wear" (the term I prefer). Plus I do not think most folks are sophisticated enough to be able to tell the difference between alignment based irregular wear and the wear caused by a bad shock.
So now to the question at hand.
First, it is possible to generate irregular wear without any tread pattern whatsoever. This seems to be related to higher order vibration harmonics.
Those harmonics seem to be a function of the tire size (its physical dimensions), the uniformity of tha casing (which is somewhat related to the consisitency of the manufacturing process), and a lot to do with the tread pattern (which is somewhat related to manufacturing consistency, but mostly related to the design of the pattern itself).
Needless to say, straight ribbed tread patterns are pretty much immune to this - but you won't find any of those. Even the mildest of tread patterns has a shoulder pattern that includes some "lugs" in oder to qualify as "all season" - and those lugs get subjected to those vibrational harmonics.
My pet theory: Tread patterns where the pattern is more broken up, especially if the pattern forms a 45º angle across the face of the tread, will be more suseptible to irregular wear. Tread patterns with more "luggy" shoulders are more suseptible.
Frankly, I don't think the brand plays much of a role except to say that some manufacturers tend to use tread patterns that are more suseptible.
But there are several complicating factors making it very difficult to sort this all out.
I'd agre with this also..
I don't like the term "cupping" because it is soooooo misused.
In the old, bias tire, days, "cupping" actually looked like a "cup" had scooped out some of the tread. That was caused by imbalance or a bad shock - and in those days, that was pretty common.
But today's radial tires don't show a single "cup" from the same cause. Plus, shocks and tires have gotten better and this isn't as much of a problem as it used to be.
I'm of the opinion that mis-alignment is now the leading cause of "irregular wear" (the term I prefer). Plus I do not think most folks are sophisticated enough to be able to tell the difference between alignment based irregular wear and the wear caused by a bad shock.
So now to the question at hand.
First, it is possible to generate irregular wear without any tread pattern whatsoever. This seems to be related to higher order vibration harmonics.
Those harmonics seem to be a function of the tire size (its physical dimensions), the uniformity of tha casing (which is somewhat related to the consisitency of the manufacturing process), and a lot to do with the tread pattern (which is somewhat related to manufacturing consistency, but mostly related to the design of the pattern itself).
Needless to say, straight ribbed tread patterns are pretty much immune to this - but you won't find any of those. Even the mildest of tread patterns has a shoulder pattern that includes some "lugs" in oder to qualify as "all season" - and those lugs get subjected to those vibrational harmonics.
My pet theory: Tread patterns where the pattern is more broken up, especially if the pattern forms a 45º angle across the face of the tread, will be more suseptible to irregular wear. Tread patterns with more "luggy" shoulders are more suseptible.
Frankly, I don't think the brand plays much of a role except to say that some manufacturers tend to use tread patterns that are more suseptible.
But there are several complicating factors making it very difficult to sort this all out.
I'd agre with this also..
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
My pet theory: Tread patterns where the pattern is more broken up, especially if the pattern forms a 45º angle across the face of the tread, will be more suseptible to irregular wear. Tread patterns with more "luggy" shoulders are more suseptible.
Can you please illustrate this?
I am not familiar with the terms so if you could provide picture examples of tires, that would be helpful.
Thanks.
My pet theory: Tread patterns where the pattern is more broken up, especially if the pattern forms a 45º angle across the face of the tread, will be more suseptible to irregular wear. Tread patterns with more "luggy" shoulders are more suseptible.
Can you please illustrate this?
I am not familiar with the terms so if you could provide picture examples of tires, that would be helpful.
Thanks.
Here's an excellent example of a near 45-degree tread pattern:
Originally Posted By: Blumurder
Are they know to cup more so than other brands?
I griped about having to buy "V" rated Coopers for my daughter-in-law's Camry. 45k later, the CS4s have no cupping, even wear, and more than half the treadlife left. Very quiet and excellent manners dry and wet.
Are they know to cup more so than other brands?
I griped about having to buy "V" rated Coopers for my daughter-in-law's Camry. 45k later, the CS4s have no cupping, even wear, and more than half the treadlife left. Very quiet and excellent manners dry and wet.
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Here's an excellent example of a near 45-degree tread pattern:
http://www.michelinman.com/images/tire-selector/tires/x-radial-dt.jpg
Actually, no. But that is a good example of a tire with a basic rib pattern and not much "lugginess" in the shoulder. That tire ought to be pretty immune to irregular wear.
I'll try to post one latter. I'm in the middle of something now.
Here's an excellent example of a near 45-degree tread pattern:
http://www.michelinman.com/images/tire-selector/tires/x-radial-dt.jpg
Actually, no. But that is a good example of a tire with a basic rib pattern and not much "lugginess" in the shoulder. That tire ought to be pretty immune to irregular wear.
I'll try to post one latter. I'm in the middle of something now.
That's more or less what I meant. The individual tread elements are on a 45° angle.
Perhaps something like this?
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/BigPic.jsp...eModel=Eagle+GT
Why do you think, from your professional opinion, that certain tire engineers choose to use tread patterns that are more susceptible to noise complaints?
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/BigPic.jsp...eModel=Eagle+GT
Why do you think, from your professional opinion, that certain tire engineers choose to use tread patterns that are more susceptible to noise complaints?
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Actually, no. But that is a good example of a tire with a basic rib pattern and not much "lugginess" in the shoulder. That tire ought to be pretty immune to irregular wear.
It feathers pretty bad on the edges of the tread. Just the outer 1/2", where the tread block becomes 45 degrees to the tire (in the outer rib, the tread block makes a near-90 degree turn). On the inner half of that outer rib, past the 90 degree turn, it doesn't feather nearly as bad.
Actually, no. But that is a good example of a tire with a basic rib pattern and not much "lugginess" in the shoulder. That tire ought to be pretty immune to irregular wear.
It feathers pretty bad on the edges of the tread. Just the outer 1/2", where the tread block becomes 45 degrees to the tire (in the outer rib, the tread block makes a near-90 degree turn). On the inner half of that outer rib, past the 90 degree turn, it doesn't feather nearly as bad.
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