What are the true synthetic oils?

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Bill,

I wouldn't think you would make it up, I had seriously not read that part of it.

Either way though it's still impressive even if the odd thing was done on the engine. It didn't say that the engine was "rebuilt" at any point.

And it's quite possible that it did make it all on M1 considering the mileage you have on your cars with straight dino.
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Originally Posted By: StevieC
Bill,

I wouldn't think you would make it up, I had seriously not read that part of it.

Either way though it's still impressive even if the odd thing was done on the engine. It didn't say that the engine was "rebuilt" at any point.

And it's quite possible that it did make it all on M1 considering the mileage you have on your cars with straight dino.
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You still don't get it but that's okay. The marketing is working.
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No I get it... I just think it's still impressive even if a little bit of work was done to the engine.

Quote:

"Gilbert was meticulous about vehicle maintenance, including regular oil changes with premium, synthetic oil. He replaced the car's transmission at about 200,000 miles, but beyond that the engine was hardly touched."


They quote all the work he has had done and the only engine work they quote as being done was the head-gaskets which aren't oil related.

No where did they say valves, seats, valve-seals, pistons/rings/bearings/rist-pins or re-honing the cylinders.

Did I miss somthing?
 
Castrol Syntec. Particularly Non-German, or GC.
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There are many many threads about Group III/IV/V and PAO Base Stocks.

Basically, they are all incorrect, and regardless of the B.S. (Base Stocks
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) The END RESULT with addy pack is to be evaluated?

And Yes, I too have not made another base Stock thread since i received this information.
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I'll play along... but I'm going to have to add some speculation, as no-one knows for 100% sure. But if I had to guess, this is what I would guess...

Group V = Esters
Group IV = PAO

Royal Purple XPR (mostly Grp-V)

Royal Purple (mostly Grp-IV, 0w40 may have even more % of it, perhaps even some Grp-V)

Redline (mostly Grp-V)

Motul 300v (mostly Grp-V)

Motul (mostly Grp-IV)

Amsoil Dominator (mostly Grp-V)

Amsoil (non-XL) (mostly Grp-IV)

Mobil 1 0w20/30/40, 15w50 & 10w30/40 High Mileage (mostly Grp-IV)

Mobil 1 Racing 0w30, 0w50 (mostly Grp-V)

Shaeffer's Supreme 9000 (mostly Grp-IV)

Castrol 0w30 Euro (aka German Castrol, mostly Grp-IV)

Castrol Edge [euro versions] (mostly Grp-IV)

Eneos (Grp-IV and V)

RLI (Grp-IV & V)

...this is NOT fact. Just my best guesses. Though I feel pretty comfortable with it. But remember, all of these have a mix of different groups. None of them are %100 of any 1 group.
 
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And when I say "mostly" I just mean more of that group than any of the others, and most likely (almost certainly imo) more than 50% overall. But they all have to mix various groups to get the oil to perform better, as each group has some kind benefits to it.
 
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That's a pretty decent list from shpankey as far as "mostly" Group IV and V. An oil tends to be anywhere from 10-40% additives, so if you then have "mostly" IV or V it isn't saying much.

Originally Posted By: 1999nick
You that are saying that the Group lll oils may be just as good, or may be even better than true synthetic Group IV's are the one's not getting the point. What I object to is claiming in advertising that oil is "synthetic", when it is not. It may be super refined and just as good, but, to me, it is a lie to say it is synthetic when it is not.


Well, define synthetic first.

You probably can't do it without using 5 paragraphs and 20 exceptions in legalese. And therein lies the problem.

I mean, how exactly do you distinguish the "synthetic"-ness between a Fischer-Tropsch gas-to-liquid hydrocrack conversion, and a PAO feed? Number of steps? Amount of machinery necessary? Amount of technology necessary? Number of human intervention? How much staffing a plant needs?

You could possibly go for the homogeneous-ness of the product - but then when you make that basestock into oil, it changes again.

And how do you define the synthetic-ness of Group V's when they by definition can all differ?

Did you consider all these questions before claiming that companies are "lying"? Maybe, maybe they were when they first fought the Group III battle. But today? It's a lot more complex of an issue than you think.
 
Originally Posted By: jmdennis
I for one see that many synthetic oils use a group III base oil at least in the US. I personally like the Europe way of doing things in that they will not let a oil company label some thing as being synthetic unless it is truly synthetic.


Many Group III motor oils perform exactly like a PAO under normal conditions.

Since Group III base stocks don't appear in nature, I assume they are synthetic.
 
Originally Posted By: znode
That's a pretty decent list from shpankey as far as "mostly" Group IV and V. An oil tends to be anywhere from 10-40% additives, so if you then have "mostly" IV or V it isn't saying much.

Originally Posted By: 1999nick
You that are saying that the Group lll oils may be just as good, or may be even better than true synthetic Group IV's are the one's not getting the point. What I object to is claiming in advertising that oil is "synthetic", when it is not. It may be super refined and just as good, but, to me, it is a lie to say it is synthetic when it is not.


Well, define synthetic first.

You probably can't do it without using 5 paragraphs and 20 exceptions in legalese. And therein lies the problem.

I mean, how exactly do you distinguish the "synthetic"-ness between a Fischer-Tropsch gas-to-liquid hydrocrack conversion, and a PAO feed? Number of steps? Amount of machinery necessary? Amount of technology necessary? Number of human intervention? How much staffing a plant needs?

You could possibly go for the homogeneous-ness of the product - but then when you make that basestock into oil, it changes again.

And how do you define the synthetic-ness of Group V's when they by definition can all differ?

Did you consider all these questions before claiming that companies are "lying"? Maybe, maybe they were when they first fought the Group III battle. But today? It's a lot more complex of an issue than you think.


For me, a user of Mobil One synthetic since it first came out back in the 1970's, it is not hard at all. Synthetic oil is the type of oil that Mobil 1 and few more were up until the Syntec claim that won out back in 1999 or thereabouts. Since then, I believe that most "synthetics" are of the Group III type, or have a mixture of Group III and Group IV and should be properly called "synthetic blends".

Mobil One has about 22 different formulas and weights they are marketing now, and they have varying amounts of synthetic in them. My present favorite is the 10W30 High Mileage version.

This sounds like typical lawyer mumbo-jumbo. What has a process used to make Group III, or the amount of machinery or workers used got to do with whether a product is synthetic or highly refined dino oil?
 
Originally Posted By: 1999nick
For me, a user of Mobil One synthetic since it first came out back in the 1970's, it is not hard at all. Synthetic oil is the type of oil that Mobil 1 and few more were up until the Syntec claim that won out back in 1999 or thereabouts.
Wow.

I ask you "how would you define synthetic, it's a very complex issue, especially considering Fischer-Tropsch GTL process", and your answer is "however Mobil 1 defines it".

Way to drink the 70's marketing koolaid and not care about the science, or technical innovation.

And guess what, Mobil 1 calls their Group III's synthetic. Why? Because the old definition is simply outdated and unsuited for the industry today.

Originally Posted By: 1999nick
Since then, I believe that most "synthetics" are of the Group III type, or have a mixture of Group III and Group IV and should be properly called "synthetic blends".
By that definition every synthetic on the market is a synthetic blend, because carrier oils are always necessary for additive compatibility when you go PAO.

Originally Posted By: 1999nick
This sounds like typical lawyer mumbo-jumbo.
I give you science, and if you don't understand it you drink the marketing coolaid and call anything you don't understand lawyer mumbo-jumbo?

Originally Posted By: 1999nick
What has a process used to make Group III, or the amount of machinery or workers used got to do with whether a product is synthetic or highly refined dino oil?
Because times have changed... 15 years ago.
 
I thought most synthetic oils today are a tri-blend (GIII, PAO, Ester) anyway. You're never going to get a true synthetic oil unless you're willing to pay for Motul 300V, which is the only confirmed 100% PAO/Ester blend oil I know of. You can pay the $15/quart price tag, but it's like buying R compound tires for a car that will never go over 70 MPH or push more than .25 Gs.
 
Originally Posted By: Scuderia
I thought most synthetic oils today are a tri-blend (GIII, PAO, Ester) anyway. You're never going to get a true synthetic oil unless you're willing to pay for Motul 300V, which is the only confirmed 100% PAO/Ester blend oil I know of. You can pay the $15/quart price tag, but it's like buying R compound tires for a car that will never go over 70 MPH or push more than .25 Gs.


Royal Purple and Redline are chopped liver?
 
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Bill,

I wouldn't think you would make it up, I had seriously not read that part of it.

Either way though it's still impressive even if the odd thing was done on the engine. It didn't say that the engine was "rebuilt" at any point.

And it's quite possible that it did make it all on M1 considering the mileage you have on your cars with straight dino.
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Of course this guy is a fraud when he said he only replaced the head gaskets and the engine had 1 milliom miles on it with M1 oil. We must believe that here to follow the party line. If XM has anything to do with it it has to be a scam. StevieC, don't forget that.
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Originally Posted By: tig1


Of course this guy is a fraud when he said he only replaced the head gaskets and the engine had 1 milliom miles on it with M1 oil. We must believe that here to follow the party line. If XM has anything to do with it it has to be a scam. StevieC, don't forget that.
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No to follow the "party line" here at BITOG you need to use your brain.
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Not believe the marketing spew that oil companies use (Tig you don't find it at the little bit interesting that Mobil did not DISCLOSE that the engine HAD been apart THREE TIMES in their fluff piece? NOT A LITTLE BIT?)

Dude, their is NO hope for you and expect each and every time HERE to be challenged when oil companies spew their their fluff when people like you post it as fact.

That is what BITOG has and will always be. Question the spew and find out the facts.

Bill
 
Bill.
Thanks for the advise, I'll keep that in mind. As for the engine repair, if the only repair was head gaskets as the owner says, then no need to mention, as that is not an oil related or lubricated part. The owner didn't mention lifter, cam, valves or other oarts were replaced. If all or part of those items were replaced or other internal engine repairs were done, then this guy is a fraud and XM deceived us. I'm as quick as any to call a spade a spade. But if this guy is truthful then I will give credit where it is due and it's a remarkable run he had with his car.

Gerald
 
Bill,
Also I want to address what you said here in public, as me posting something you say is fluff and I post it as fact. To start with Bill, I didn't post this about the Sabb. I only commented about the harshness of disbelief you have toward anything XM, or those that may approves of their products and disagree with you.
Also you say there is no hope for me. Well I certainly hope you are wrong about that, but many friends and family would dispute that with you with Vigor. Also many times you imply that I lie or stretch the truth. Show me where I have done that. You also have implied that I have a financial interest in XM. Not so in any way. Hope this clears the air a bit.
 
Okay a few points;

1. You use the word IF a lot above. If the only repair was, IF some parts were or not replaced. IF the guy is truthful.

Mobil is going to report (IF they feel the story is true) what they are told. But a FACT is Mobil says (ie LEFT OUT) the FACT that the engine was torn apart THREE times. Not a single word about that. What else was left out?
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That is why I hate all these "fluff" stories. And you need to take off the Mobil hat as its causing you NOT to see when I call out other brands. Reason why I call out Mobil more? Because they are the masters of stealth marketing that people fall for. Calling 10 degrees ABOVE zero severe for one..

2. Never said you are an lair. I have said you need to stand back and LOOK at what you are posting. Someone asks a question about or makes a statement and there you are posting a link from mother with an marketing piece. If the OP or someone wanted to learn about Mobil they would go there to see their links. They are here at BITOG to get the FACTS. Not marketing links posted as FACTS.

3. Yes we know your friends and family ONLY drive Fords and use Mobil products. How do I know this, because that is all you post. (Okay, I'll be more reasonable, 99.3%)
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Really man, that is what you only project. When that is all you post then your rep is going to be what it is. Is there anything wrong with only Fords and Mobil? No. But its hard to take someones posting if they only have an narrow mindset/experience level. Look at my UOAs (yes, I know they are useless
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) NOTICE that I've used most brands incl Mobil. (that would indicate that if I had the HATE I would NEVER use their product. Correct? In fact I have a jug of Mobil 1 in my garage right now!) I don't care what/who makes my oil just that it works. And there are more choices than an single brand.

3. You posted (in so many words) that you have a family member who works for/with/whatever XM and I just repeated it.
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There has to be some reason for how you post. I'm just trying to figure it out. If you have noting involved with Mobil then they would like to spend some time with you to figure out how to get someone SO brand LOYAL to ignore things that are happening to MANY other members.

Am I harsh at times. Sadly yes.
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But when I have to rebuke the same thing OVER and OVER with no one coming up with ANY answer it becomes beyond frustrating. Mobil and their 1,000,000 km (NOT MILE
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) dyno test. They sorta forgot to tell people about the big cooler hanging off the front bumper. I keep meaning to go to Mercedes and find out the code for that cooler and how many people order it since I've never seen one going down the road. In that thread I asked/commented many times with few (incl you) even noticing it. When discovered (ie it had to be commented on) no biggie. Yes it is, if you have to hang a big NON STOCK cooler in a silly test to make the test work, that says volumes to me.

Trust me, the only personal thing to me is that this site does not become a marketing fluff site. Do we have sponsors who are selling things? Yes (thank goodness since without them we are toast) but they KNOW that we will discuss the good with the bad, the fluff from the facts. And they do KNOW that. Also lucky for us we have some sponsors who interact with our members (Pennzoil and of course the best example are the Amsoil guys. They would be (and have more times than I can count) the first ones to tell you that Amsoil is not for everyone. They don't just keep with the single mindset that Amsoil is the only fluid and that is all they use and all you should use.

Again, NOTHING PERSONAL Tig. Its just that this site has been always calling out members for as long as its been. And that will continue for a lot longer.

Bill

PS: and with that I'm going to exit this discussion as we have gone off subject. But I wanted to inject what BITOG has been over the years and will continue to be. And the reasons for some "interactions".
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Originally Posted By: Scuderia
I thought most synthetic oils today are a tri-blend (GIII, PAO, Ester) anyway. You're never going to get a true synthetic oil unless you're willing to pay for Motul 300V, which is the only confirmed 100% PAO/Ester blend oil I know of. You can pay the $15/quart price tag, but it's like buying R compound tires for a car that will never go over 70 MPH or push more than .25 Gs.
It is just having the brand recognition that makes it worthwhile.
 
Remember there are many million mile vehicles using all kinds of oils the secret all things equal is the vehicles are driven lots of miles with the engine at operating temps.
 
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