I hear on Saturns they say you'll burn oil because the rings are stuck, but I don't see how a ring can be stuck when it is moving up and down a hundred times a second.
what does 'stuck rings' mean?
- Thread starter mjoekingz28
- Start date
- Status
They are not getting stuck to the cylinder...that'd be pretty bad. They get stuck to the groves they sit in and don't hug the cylinder walls evenly as they should which causes loss of compression and excessive oil burning.
Yeah, also, they are supposed to spin.
I think of it as more of a rocking back-and-forth, (mostly) as the connecting rod angle pushes the piston against the cylinder liner.
On saturns specifically the compression rings usually stay free, making reasonable static compression. This helps keep these cars alive as long as they're topped off even if they smoke like chimneys.
On saturns specifically the compression rings usually stay free, making reasonable static compression. This helps keep these cars alive as long as they're topped off even if they smoke like chimneys.
I had one Saturn tech tell me it was due to defective rings and that he replaced rings on several engines that burned excessive oil and it fixed that problem. I can't remember if it had anything to do with the pistons or if he replaced them as well.
Piston ring grooves tend to collect combustion by-products like water vapor, carbon, and other solids that try to blow past the rings. Also due to the piston tops being a high heat area, any varnish like compounds in the oil will bake out and solidify in the grooves as well. This is an area that will benefit from using a quality high heat synthetic oil.
sounds like MMO time to me
I have seen rings so coked up that the piston was completely smooth on the outside. The rings are left in a compressed state in the piston, not able to expand against the cylinder wall. When this happens the oil ring allows oil to pass into the combustion chamber and burn. Also this will allow combustion products to pass by the rings into the oil pan. You loose power as the compression rings are are prevented from sealing off the combustion chamber thus loosing compression.
Originally Posted By: pcoxe
Piston ring grooves tend to collect combustion by-products like water vapor, carbon, and other solids that try to blow past the rings. Also due to the piston tops being a high heat area, any varnish like compounds in the oil will bake out and solidify in the grooves as well. This is an area that will benefit from using a quality high heat synthetic oil.
And this is sorta like the tooth fairy. Millions of engines have no issues with the ring deposits using what is recommended in the manual for the OCI in the manual.
It is one of the "selling points" for people to justify their WANTING to use syn oil. Not the NEED for it.
Does it happen and is it possible? Sure in some engines using ANY type of oil too long or if its a design problem then its going to happen.
Take care, Bill
Piston ring grooves tend to collect combustion by-products like water vapor, carbon, and other solids that try to blow past the rings. Also due to the piston tops being a high heat area, any varnish like compounds in the oil will bake out and solidify in the grooves as well. This is an area that will benefit from using a quality high heat synthetic oil.
And this is sorta like the tooth fairy. Millions of engines have no issues with the ring deposits using what is recommended in the manual for the OCI in the manual.
It is one of the "selling points" for people to justify their WANTING to use syn oil. Not the NEED for it.
Does it happen and is it possible? Sure in some engines using ANY type of oil too long or if its a design problem then its going to happen.
Take care, Bill
I wonder if a lot of these engines with stuck rings are just not driven hard enough. My wife gets on me occasionally for driving her Rabbit hard, but frankly, I believe that some hard driving is good for an engine. None of mine have ever burned oil or otherwise had issues, and I run them hard most the time.
robert
robert
Originally Posted By: robertcope
I wonder if a lot of these engines with stuck rings are just not driven hard enough. My wife gets on me occasionally for driving her Rabbit hard, but frankly, I believe that some hard driving is good for an engine. None of mine have ever burned oil or otherwise had issues, and I run them hard most the time.
robert
I really don't think so. My dad has always been fairly easy on his vehicles and has no problems with rings sticking or deposits.
And no abnormal oil usage or engines not lasting a long time. I think most of stuck rings are due to poor maintenance. Not the oil they ran.
Bill
I wonder if a lot of these engines with stuck rings are just not driven hard enough. My wife gets on me occasionally for driving her Rabbit hard, but frankly, I believe that some hard driving is good for an engine. None of mine have ever burned oil or otherwise had issues, and I run them hard most the time.
robert
I really don't think so. My dad has always been fairly easy on his vehicles and has no problems with rings sticking or deposits.
And no abnormal oil usage or engines not lasting a long time. I think most of stuck rings are due to poor maintenance. Not the oil they ran.
Bill
Originally Posted By: robertcope
I wonder if a lot of these engines with stuck rings are just not driven hard enough. My wife gets on me occasionally for driving her Rabbit hard, but frankly, I believe that some hard driving is good for an engine. None of mine have ever burned oil or otherwise had issues, and I run them hard most the time.
robert
An 85-125hp saturn is probably driven pretty hard, especially if it's on the interstate running AC.
Another theory on the saturn ring issue is the metal springiness of the rings is relaxed to cut friction, so the rings don't have the power to free themselves from the ever-present goo. There is hope (my hope?) that the aftermarket (sealed power etc) rings have better tension in a "problem solver" fix.
I have one of these s-cars in pieces in my garage as we speak, getting new rings at 200k. The old ones were not baked in place, though the squiggly oil control rings, the ones known for getting bad, were held in with a molasses-like viscous goo. Took considerable scraping to remove a chocolate-brown dry "carbon" from the ring grooves. Cylinder liners still have hatching, pistons still have that micro-machining on the skirts. We'll see how it comes out.
Though I agree synthetic oil should help, there are anecdotes of M1 users from day 1 still running into issues.
I wonder if a lot of these engines with stuck rings are just not driven hard enough. My wife gets on me occasionally for driving her Rabbit hard, but frankly, I believe that some hard driving is good for an engine. None of mine have ever burned oil or otherwise had issues, and I run them hard most the time.
robert
An 85-125hp saturn is probably driven pretty hard, especially if it's on the interstate running AC.
Another theory on the saturn ring issue is the metal springiness of the rings is relaxed to cut friction, so the rings don't have the power to free themselves from the ever-present goo. There is hope (my hope?) that the aftermarket (sealed power etc) rings have better tension in a "problem solver" fix.
I have one of these s-cars in pieces in my garage as we speak, getting new rings at 200k. The old ones were not baked in place, though the squiggly oil control rings, the ones known for getting bad, were held in with a molasses-like viscous goo. Took considerable scraping to remove a chocolate-brown dry "carbon" from the ring grooves. Cylinder liners still have hatching, pistons still have that micro-machining on the skirts. We'll see how it comes out.
Though I agree synthetic oil should help, there are anecdotes of M1 users from day 1 still running into issues.
I think the ring side and back clearance might come into play at least with the top rings. What's suppose to happen is cylinder gas pressure is suppose to seal the ring against the bottom of the piston ring land, and then also apply pressure to the back of the ring forcing it into the cylinder wall. But with the oil consumption that might be an oil ring tension or design problem.
I guess any SM oil is not allowed to cause any ring sticking in testing. I think stuck rings was more of a fuel and fuel control issue not see much with FI anyway.
I guess any SM oil is not allowed to cause any ring sticking in testing. I think stuck rings was more of a fuel and fuel control issue not see much with FI anyway.
Saturns don't have drain holes in the piston rings. They did this because at the time the Saturn engine was engineered 5w30 oil was the newest player (~1991) and they were concerned over cylinder lubrication. They wanted to use this new 5w30 for improved fuel economy. The Saturns were toted as having 40mpg highway with the SOHC.
Some Saturn owners have used Mobil 1 or a synthetic since day 1 and their engine still burns oil. I've used conventional every 4-4.5k and I use a quart between changes. Sometimes it can drop 3/4 of a quart after a long highway trip at 75mph for 5 hours. My engine seems to start burning oil once the oil has almost 3000 miles on it...almost like the oil hits some plateu of fuel contamination or shear level.
It seems to be hit or miss with these engines in terms of oil burning. It does not affect their life however, as somebody over at the saturn forums has 600k on their engine burning a quart every few hundred miles.
It doesn't seem to matter what oil is used in these engines. Change it when it needs changing and keep it full...these engines will go the distance.
Some Saturn owners have used Mobil 1 or a synthetic since day 1 and their engine still burns oil. I've used conventional every 4-4.5k and I use a quart between changes. Sometimes it can drop 3/4 of a quart after a long highway trip at 75mph for 5 hours. My engine seems to start burning oil once the oil has almost 3000 miles on it...almost like the oil hits some plateu of fuel contamination or shear level.
It seems to be hit or miss with these engines in terms of oil burning. It does not affect their life however, as somebody over at the saturn forums has 600k on their engine burning a quart every few hundred miles.
It doesn't seem to matter what oil is used in these engines. Change it when it needs changing and keep it full...these engines will go the distance.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: GMFan
Saturns don't have drain holes in the piston rings.
Y'know, I've noticed that engines with no lube holes in the piston and high rod-stroke ratios suffer the most. The worst combination is an engine like that, combined with high VII oil and low RPM operation. A high R/S ratio is great in many aspects, such as more sinusoidal piston accelerations (slower speedup, slowdown = less vibration and less cylinder wall loading), longer piston dwell at and near TDC which prolongs peak cylinder pressure (read: heat). In cases like this, the rings are moving too gently in higher than average heat. Everyone knows an engine can be spotless on top and everywhere else, but pull those pistons and witness the hard core varnishing and coking. There is nothing worse than burning oil and losing compression for any reason other than wear and after inheriting an oil burning engine in this condition, I've since pledged to avoid VII laden oils as much as I could. I will also not build an engine without the oil holes in the pistons, even if it means drilling them myself! Underpiston squirters, oil holes and low/no VII oil is just ideal in my books.
Saturns don't have drain holes in the piston rings.
Y'know, I've noticed that engines with no lube holes in the piston and high rod-stroke ratios suffer the most. The worst combination is an engine like that, combined with high VII oil and low RPM operation. A high R/S ratio is great in many aspects, such as more sinusoidal piston accelerations (slower speedup, slowdown = less vibration and less cylinder wall loading), longer piston dwell at and near TDC which prolongs peak cylinder pressure (read: heat). In cases like this, the rings are moving too gently in higher than average heat. Everyone knows an engine can be spotless on top and everywhere else, but pull those pistons and witness the hard core varnishing and coking. There is nothing worse than burning oil and losing compression for any reason other than wear and after inheriting an oil burning engine in this condition, I've since pledged to avoid VII laden oils as much as I could. I will also not build an engine without the oil holes in the pistons, even if it means drilling them myself! Underpiston squirters, oil holes and low/no VII oil is just ideal in my books.
Saturn did make incremental changes to the piston and ring design every few years but they never exercised the oil using tendancy from the 1.9 entirely.
I never had worse than 1qt./3K from a '96 but maintained it perfectly and only had a little over 100K when traded for a VUE which has the unrelated 2.2 Ecotec, which IIRC has never needed topping off.
An Isuzu 3.2/3.5L V-6 was basically the same way as well. They became much better in later engines but always used at least a little oil. Kept full they will also run a long time but are also often killed from running out of oil.
I never had worse than 1qt./3K from a '96 but maintained it perfectly and only had a little over 100K when traded for a VUE which has the unrelated 2.2 Ecotec, which IIRC has never needed topping off.
An Isuzu 3.2/3.5L V-6 was basically the same way as well. They became much better in later engines but always used at least a little oil. Kept full they will also run a long time but are also often killed from running out of oil.
Saturns have no drain holes behind the oil control rings? No slots cut into them. There should be no holes behind the compression rings as that would cause them to not seal.
Their isn't holes behind any of the piston rings, their should have been behind the oil control rings. This where the issue is, oil sits in that oil control slot and bakes to carbon causing the oil control rings to stick. To the OP, www.saturnfans.com search MMO soak and follow the instructions, then switch to a good synthetic.
- Status
