DuH oIl yOu Can't rUn a mOtoR witHoUt oiL. 
What's more important: oil or filter?
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Learn something new everyday! Thanks for the relpies.
Put on a "dummy oil filter"...engine will do fine after breakin.
Don't use an air filter...suck in some sand and dirt...goodbye Charley.
Use a non-detergent 30 wt oil....change every 3,000 miles...might be okay.
So..are we minimalists or maximalists?
Don't use an air filter...suck in some sand and dirt...goodbye Charley.
Use a non-detergent 30 wt oil....change every 3,000 miles...might be okay.
So..are we minimalists or maximalists?
After break-in - I don't think a "good" filter is that necessary, but I'll still keep using the FRAM TG and/or XG (depending what's available).
During break-in I think is where you see the most wear occur, so yea, that's really when a good filter is needed.
Then I was thinking, what's the purpose of running a "cleaning" Oil (such as Pennzoil, which seems to be dead-set on "clean") with a sub-par filter, or no filter at all?
With a "cleaning" mechanism you gotta have something to hold the "cleaned" material for instance
But yea, with a good air filter, that'll eliminate most "particulates" that could land their way into the combusion chamber and eventually into the oil.
During break-in I think is where you see the most wear occur, so yea, that's really when a good filter is needed.
Then I was thinking, what's the purpose of running a "cleaning" Oil (such as Pennzoil, which seems to be dead-set on "clean") with a sub-par filter, or no filter at all?
With a "cleaning" mechanism you gotta have something to hold the "cleaned" material for instance
But yea, with a good air filter, that'll eliminate most "particulates" that could land their way into the combusion chamber and eventually into the oil.
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Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Oil is more important than the filter.
+1
I have heard MANY people say that the Filter is not of much Importance, depending on "How it was Mounted." Therefore, i was lead to believe that most Filters could be Anything, if some Engine designs dont fully utilize it.
I have seen some Oil Filters in weird spots too on Engines.
Oil is more important than the filter.
+1
I have heard MANY people say that the Filter is not of much Importance, depending on "How it was Mounted." Therefore, i was lead to believe that most Filters could be Anything, if some Engine designs dont fully utilize it.
I have seen some Oil Filters in weird spots too on Engines.
Originally Posted By: ahoier
Then I was thinking, what's the purpose of running a "cleaning" Oil (such as Pennzoil, which seems to be dead-set on "clean") with a sub-par filter, or no filter at all?
With a "cleaning" mechanism you gotta have something to hold the "cleaned" material for instance
I would think if an any oil "cleans" anything it would desolve deposits and hold them in suspension. The idea of gunk and sludge floating in the oil and getting caught in the filter seems unrealistic to me.
Then I was thinking, what's the purpose of running a "cleaning" Oil (such as Pennzoil, which seems to be dead-set on "clean") with a sub-par filter, or no filter at all?
With a "cleaning" mechanism you gotta have something to hold the "cleaned" material for instance
I would think if an any oil "cleans" anything it would desolve deposits and hold them in suspension. The idea of gunk and sludge floating in the oil and getting caught in the filter seems unrealistic to me.
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Originally Posted By: milwaukee
Originally Posted By: ahoier
Then I was thinking, what's the purpose of running a "cleaning" Oil (such as Pennzoil, which seems to be dead-set on "clean") with a sub-par filter, or no filter at all?
With a "cleaning" mechanism you gotta have something to hold the "cleaned" material for instance
I would think if an any oil "cleans" anything it would desolve deposits and hold them in suspension. The idea of gunk and sludge floating in the oil and getting caught in the filter seems unrealistic to me.
It would reason that whatever formed the deposit(s) was/were composed of (or containing) smaller particles. Otherwise they should have been trapped via the original filter assuming it was functional. You may get your random entombed larger chunk, but it too should get filtered out. Most of it should be, or so I reason, at the particle level. I guess it depends on how aggressive the cleaning action is.
Originally Posted By: ahoier
Then I was thinking, what's the purpose of running a "cleaning" Oil (such as Pennzoil, which seems to be dead-set on "clean") with a sub-par filter, or no filter at all?
With a "cleaning" mechanism you gotta have something to hold the "cleaned" material for instance
I would think if an any oil "cleans" anything it would desolve deposits and hold them in suspension. The idea of gunk and sludge floating in the oil and getting caught in the filter seems unrealistic to me.
It would reason that whatever formed the deposit(s) was/were composed of (or containing) smaller particles. Otherwise they should have been trapped via the original filter assuming it was functional. You may get your random entombed larger chunk, but it too should get filtered out. Most of it should be, or so I reason, at the particle level. I guess it depends on how aggressive the cleaning action is.
After the first thousand or so miles, the filter is really not that important.
Now, I like using something high-end, but I would not pay the shelf price for an M1 or a K&N oil filter.
However, you can often get them as part of an oil change special, making them net quite inexpensive.
No oil filter can prevent sludge.
No oil filter can prevent excess wear.
A good oil can do both of these things.
I placed an emphasis on using mostly synthetic oils long before I came here.
Having come here, I have come to understand that syns are not really an advantage in most applications.
I have also come to understand that the oil filter you use is really not of much importance for the drain intervals most of us use.
Now, I like using something high-end, but I would not pay the shelf price for an M1 or a K&N oil filter.
However, you can often get them as part of an oil change special, making them net quite inexpensive.
No oil filter can prevent sludge.
No oil filter can prevent excess wear.
A good oil can do both of these things.
I placed an emphasis on using mostly synthetic oils long before I came here.
Having come here, I have come to understand that syns are not really an advantage in most applications.
I have also come to understand that the oil filter you use is really not of much importance for the drain intervals most of us use.
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Quote:
After the first thousand or so miles, the filter is really not that important.
Can you help me out on this one?
After the first thousand or so miles, the filter is really not that important.
Can you help me out on this one?
Originally Posted By: addyguy
The oil, for sure.
There's been a study done (the original 'BOB', I think) that showed an engine can run without harm w/o a filter. .
Yes, I believe the test vehicle was his Escort, he even had some UOA's to back it up.
The oil, for sure.
There's been a study done (the original 'BOB', I think) that showed an engine can run without harm w/o a filter. .
Yes, I believe the test vehicle was his Escort, he even had some UOA's to back it up.
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My grandfather smoked right up until he expired from plain old age @ 91. I wouldn't use his great record as some proof that it's a great idea.
Originally Posted By: Rob_Roy
Originally Posted By: addyguy
The oil, for sure.
There's been a study done (the original 'BOB', I think) that showed an engine can run without harm w/o a filter. .
Yes, I believe the test vehicle was his Escort, he even had some UOA's to back it up.
*cringes*
Reminds me of Z-Max ads. Running Engine without Oil, with Firemen standing by.
"As you can see, Z-Max protected the Critical Engine parts!"
I immediately ran out and bought Z-Max, which comes in Containers that look like Science beakers, and added them into my first car. Oh, Memories!
Gary, as for the Filter doesnt matter after a thousand miles.. Perhaps he is trying to say that its Absorbing properties have been exhausted, and its time for an Oil and Filter change, as in 3000 mile OCI?
I think the only way to know what the Filter has done is to Cut it open after its off.
And lastly.. I, too, have been told that "The Filter doesnt really matter that much." When asked why, the Advice giver seemed to mention it has to do with "The Placement of the Filter on the engine," meaning if it was in some out-of-the-way Spot on the Engine that doesnt catch a lot of Circulation, it will not really do all that much?
Originally Posted By: addyguy
The oil, for sure.
There's been a study done (the original 'BOB', I think) that showed an engine can run without harm w/o a filter. .
Yes, I believe the test vehicle was his Escort, he even had some UOA's to back it up.
*cringes*
Reminds me of Z-Max ads. Running Engine without Oil, with Firemen standing by.
"As you can see, Z-Max protected the Critical Engine parts!"
I immediately ran out and bought Z-Max, which comes in Containers that look like Science beakers, and added them into my first car. Oh, Memories!
Gary, as for the Filter doesnt matter after a thousand miles.. Perhaps he is trying to say that its Absorbing properties have been exhausted, and its time for an Oil and Filter change, as in 3000 mile OCI?
I think the only way to know what the Filter has done is to Cut it open after its off.
And lastly.. I, too, have been told that "The Filter doesnt really matter that much." When asked why, the Advice giver seemed to mention it has to do with "The Placement of the Filter on the engine," meaning if it was in some out-of-the-way Spot on the Engine that doesnt catch a lot of Circulation, it will not really do all that much?
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There's no non-need for a filter for the entire OCI. That is, unless the engine is on a test bench and never shuts down except to check the oil (they would probably have a "level" gauge attached to the pan). Then you could probably get away with it.
Originally Posted By: rationull
Originally Posted By: rjacket
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Motor oil and air filter is far more importance than oil filter. Example, Honda oil filters are made by Fram and it can be used for 2 OCI's (for many models) up to 20k miles or more.
The FRAM is that good? Seriously? Which one is it?
He's referring to the Honda OEM filter, some of which are made by Honeywell, which also makes Fram filters.
I was under the impression that;
When a manufacturer contracts a supplier to produce OEM parts for use on new vehicles with warranties, they specify a performance level that is often significantly higher than that provided by the 3rd parties 'regular' line of own-branded parts.
Is that inaccurate?
Originally Posted By: rjacket
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Motor oil and air filter is far more importance than oil filter. Example, Honda oil filters are made by Fram and it can be used for 2 OCI's (for many models) up to 20k miles or more.
The FRAM is that good? Seriously? Which one is it?
He's referring to the Honda OEM filter, some of which are made by Honeywell, which also makes Fram filters.
I was under the impression that;
When a manufacturer contracts a supplier to produce OEM parts for use on new vehicles with warranties, they specify a performance level that is often significantly higher than that provided by the 3rd parties 'regular' line of own-branded parts.
Is that inaccurate?
Well....
Try running an engine with a filter but no oil = catastrophic failure
Try running an engine with oil but no filter = you have to change the oil every 3000 or less miles but no major problems, Aircooled VW's for example....
Try running an engine with a filter but no oil = catastrophic failure
Try running an engine with oil but no filter = you have to change the oil every 3000 or less miles but no major problems, Aircooled VW's for example....
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I had 2 of those VW's when I was young. Back then - even in a small town in Texas there was a guy with a full time job rebuilding those engines. He would just tell everyone to make the first oil change early.
Oil is important, but as long as it meets manufacturer's spec (eg. API SN) and you are following their drain intervals, then IMO the difference between a cheap and boutique oil will be splitting hairs.
There does not exist a single definitive test or study that proves an engine will last longer or wear less on expensive oils vs the cheapest one GIVEN the two conditions above are followed.
There does not exist a single definitive test or study that proves an engine will last longer or wear less on expensive oils vs the cheapest one GIVEN the two conditions above are followed.
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