10,255 miles on amsoil 15/40 = copper @364ppm

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point 3... When you start the engine, it should run 10 to 20 seconds before moving it, but not accelerate hard or fast until the temp needle starts going up. That is a good indicator that the oil is close to the proper viscosity to do its work.

In case you meant point 4, after you shut off the engine, the heat tends to build a little or equalize. That can leave the turbo bearings swollen a little. This is very related to temperature, so a good cool down reduces it. I lost a turbo when an employee shut off the engine, went into the toll booth to pay, came out and restarted.
 
Very rare does that happen. mostly on the farm when I park and then get sent right back out. I let it run 20 seconds or more when I start it 90 something % of the time.
 
Made my 2nd 100 mile change today. When I change it this next time (and run that change for 6k) do I use the Delvac or go back to my Amsoil ?
 
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It all depends on what you want to isolate.

If you've flushed with the Delvac, I'd try that for a 6k mile OCI / UOA and see how it compares to the Blackstone univ avg's.

Or, you can use the Amsoil, but just realize you haven't isolated anything with that action plan. You may have flushed out a spike in metals (or masked a report error).
 
I want to isolate if I have a problem or not ?? How does going back to my usual oil not isolate a problem? (the mixture of mobil and amsoil maybe ??) Does Blackstone not have averages for Amsoil?
I won't question you though, I'll run the Delvac and delco filter for my 6k OCI and UOA. Thanks bud.
 
The vast majority of UOAs that Blackstone does are dino based; we Bitogers think we're the only ones on the planet, but that's simply not the case. So, by using a dino product for the 6k mile universal average, you'll be getting as close as possible to the "norm" of the UOA averages.

The intent was to discover if the high Cu was caused by the lube, or a mechanical problem. You need to isolate all the factors; try to view only one variable at a time.

If this were my vehicle, it would my intent to see if the Amsoil was causing the high Cu readings via chemical reaction(s). If you switch to Delvac for your next UOA, and you have used Delvac for your flushes, then the chemistry should have settled down, because you eliminated Amsoil as a contributor. Then you can see if you really have a Cu problem from a bad bearing, or if it was just the chemistry of the Amsoil. If you go right back to Amsoil now, you won't know if the problem is chemical or mechanical, because you have not isolated anything.

This does NOT means that Amsoil is bad (far from it; very good stuff). This is about isolating contributing factors; not blaming fluids.
 
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Where does the possibility of the introduced coolant come in to play?
If it turns out a good UOA this time do I need to stop using the Amsoil (is the chemical reaction a very bad thing?)
If so I may go to the Delvac or schaeffers either one.
 
Chemistry reactions happen with all oils introduced. Even brand new fresh oil of the same brand/grade will show a slight spike in wear metals shortly after an OCI. I personally believe a UOA anywhere short of 3k miles is useless, unless you're specifically looking for contamination from outside sources (silicon, fuel, coolant, etc).

The only downside to oils that heavily contribute to chemistry changes with large range shifts is that they can mask events that otherwise would be obvious. Here's a quick example of what I mean:
Consider two engines; one on dino, the other on a product that heavily contributes to "naturally high" chemistry reactions. If you have an "event" (such as a particle streak or something) that would add 10ppm of Cu, how does that affect the relative change in range? If the dino averaged 10ppm, and you add 10ppm, that is a 100% increase! If the syn averages 30ppm, and you add 10ppm, that is only a 33% increase. Now factor in the sigma ranges (statisical variation) and you're having to decide if this "event" is noise, or a major cause for concern. Get it?

No, running Amsoil is not a bad thing. They have premium products that do quite well when "used as directed". Most all synthetic products do a great job of extending the lifecycle of the fluid. But there are times when they also contribute to confusion if some other issue has arisen. Yours could be one of those cases. You're trying to see if the Cu spike came from your lube choice, or some mechanical issue. Frankly I really doubt if it's the Amsoil in your case; but to rule it out, you have to stop using it, and see if the problem persists or ceases.

If it was the Amsoil, you'll have to decide if you want to go back to it. If you do, then you need to run several consistent UOAs back to back to establish ranges and trends, so that you can know what is "normal" noise, and what is a true problem. Actually, that's the whole point of real UOA use, for any fluid.

If it wasn't the Amsoil, then you'll have to determine if the Cu and Fe spikes were isolated from some problem that happened once and has subsided, or is the issue continuing? Hence, the need for a steady, consistent set of UOA ranges and trends.

Both your Fe (high) and your Cu (way high) were of note. UOAs are NOT capable of telling you everything in every situation. UOAs are great tools, but only when used within thier scope, and only when their limitations are understood. They can show obvious things like contamination from outside sources. But wear metals are more tricky to decipher. UOAs do not see any particles over (approximately) 5um in size. You could have a huge event that throws off a chuck or two of metals, and a UOA would never see it if the chunks were still too large. Then, over time, those few chunks might break down and start to show up in the UOA, and even start to cause wear on other parts causing other wear metals to show up.

Having history of UOAs makes things easier to establish baselines. You don't really have that yet. So, I'm trying to get you to establish them as close to "average" as possible. You chose Blackstone; nothing wrong with that. Their historical "universal averages" show around 6k miles of use with a preponderance of dino useage. So, my suggestion is to pick one dino product, run it at 6k mile OCIs/UOAs, for several cycles, and see what develops.

Another thing to know about UOAs is that when things are running well, and the UOAs show no signs of any issues, then it's easy to say the engine is likely healthy. Singluar UOAs cannot show which oil is "best", but they can show that a particular lube paired with a particular engine, resulted in no harm. IOW - the absence of significantly high data points is reason to suspect all is well. But when you do get high readings, you cannot automaticlly point to the engine, the lube, or anything else. Now you have to go on a fact finding mission, and the first thing to do is start elminating variables and put consistiency into your UOA, moving it as close to "average" as possible.

If your high Cu came from a coolant leak, and the leak is still there, the Cu will continue to be high even with dino in short runs; UOAs will confirm or deny this. If the Cu came from a coolant "spill" from your EGR delete, then dino several flushes will have pushed this out and it should be gone. And this may or may not explain the Fe ... Again, this is why it is completely unfair to blame the lube (Amsoil); we don't know what the root cause is.

You're asking for answers but the evidentiary data hasn't really been developed yet. Let's see what turns up first, then hypothosize and formulate an action plan AFTER we get plenty of good data.
 
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I finally found my sheet from Oil Analyzers. Iron @ 39k (4k of use) was 14. At 46k (6k use) it was 63.
Copper was 42 @ 39k/4k use and 192 @ 46k/6k use. I believe those are the only 2 I've done prior and the first was on 5w40 amsoil then I went back to AME. I only ran the 5w40 for the 4k miles, It was AME prior to that since 5k miles.
 
I went over to DP and got some of your UOA info to bring into this.

Seems to me there have been some warnings coming along; here's a synopsis of what I see.

miles on truck.......39k.....46k........56k
miles on oil.........4k.......6k........10k
Fe...................14.......63........46
Cu..................42........192......364
lab..................OA.......OA.......Blkstn
oil..................AME.....DOE.......AME

I'm curious if OA lab "warned" or "cautioned" the second UOA; 192 of Cu is too high, and even though they tend to be a bit more tolerant of wear metals from extended OCIs. They should have made note of these high Fe and Cu readings with only 6k miles on the oil! Does the report say anything in that regard?

I've seen Amsoil make some chemistry reactions in reports, but frankly they eventually drift down a bit and then stabilize. I don't see that here (at least with the limited amount of data). I suspect something else is going on.

You also indicate that you've run Amsoil (of some type) since the truck had 5k original miles, right? Any "chemistry" reaction should have settled out by now.

Also, you switched labs, from Oil Analyzers to Blackstone. That may or may not play into this, but since the trend is escalating, even though you switched labs, I'd say that the data is likely reasonably accurate.

There is one theory that MIGHT make sense, but I say this with a huge cautionary note:
You might be changing oil too darn often. The Amsoil chemistry (if there is a preponderence for it to be strong) is getting renewed so frequently that you're not giving it a chance to calm down, and compounding the issue with continual changes. I am not putting stock into this; I only mention it as a wild outside possibility. There is a difference between "possible" and "probable".

Another "possible" is a coolant intrusion: if you do as I suggest, and your Fe and Cu drop, but the K stays higher, we're going to have to look for potassium sources (including coolant, which is typified by the complimentary existance of sodium, but that is not a 100% rule as some circumstances can attest).

Have you made ANY current or previous modifications to your oil lube system? Special filters, etc? What brand/model/part number filter are you running now, and have been running?

I believe it's probable that you have some mechanical issue. And my suggested flushes, along with several successive 6k miles OCI/UOA runs, should help rule out the Amsoil. Then we can start to work on the root cause.
 
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The previous report did say "copper level high, probably due to oil cooler. Oil is suitable for continued use."
I haven't made any other changes to the oil system. I use an EAo52 Amsoil filter w the oil. Could changing back and forth between the AME and the CJ-4 oil contribute ?
 
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It shouldn't for those relatively short change intervals...

Have any of the reports indicated water or coolant? I know we can "see" a possibility of it in the elemental readings, but they typically report water or coolant also.

That copper climbing up (and again, with relatively short intervals) would seem to be a concern.
 
Well, it's about time. Are there any deals to be had on Delvac 1300 like the $8.99 deal AZ and Advance has a while back ?
 
I switched my oil from the original owner's 5k OCI of Rotella 15w-40 at 20k miles to M1 TDT 5w-40. After 10k miles I changed and sent in smaple to Blackstone. I had 554ppm Cu! My 30-40k mile change had 125ppm Cu, still high but falling rapidly. I think the add pack in the M1 probably cause alot more copper to leach from the oil cooler. Everything else was good, zinc and phosphorus were still ~1000/~1100. I am going to install a centrifuge soon to hopefully pull the contaminants from the oil and give me longer oil service.
 
Originally Posted By: Black6spdZ
I am going to install a centrifuge soon to hopefully pull the contaminants from the oil and give me longer oil service.


That's the right way to get your money's worth; extend your OCIs.
 
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Thanks for the note on the short OCI's. Iron and copper have improved dramatically in this sample
from the 6.6L in your GMC. They are now tracking with universal averages, which is a good sign that the
engine is doing just fine mechanically. We found an increase in potassium. Without sodium present, we
don't think it's coolant, but rather just a little flux from the EGR system. We'll watch it next time. Physically,
the oil looks great. The viscosity is right where it should be and the air and oil filters got the job done.
Looking much better at 64,216 miles

Only thing is I have no EGR or PCV.
 
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