Castrol Enduron Low SAPS
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Originally Posted By: toyota62
Why this oil must not be used on petrol engines????
http://www.tds.castrol.com.au/pdf%5C5046_EnduronLowSAPS_461649_200612.pdf
It probably does not meet any of the standards for gasoline engines (i.e. SL, SM, or any manufacturer's specifications).
Why this oil must not be used on petrol engines????
http://www.tds.castrol.com.au/pdf%5C5046_EnduronLowSAPS_461649_200612.pdf
It probably does not meet any of the standards for gasoline engines (i.e. SL, SM, or any manufacturer's specifications).
Originally Posted By: toyota62
Why this oil must not be used on petrol engines????
http://www.tds.castrol.com.au/pdf%5C5046_EnduronLowSAPS_461649_200612.pdf
Good question.
I doubt it's simply because it hasn't been approved. There has to be something else...
Why this oil must not be used on petrol engines????
http://www.tds.castrol.com.au/pdf%5C5046_EnduronLowSAPS_461649_200612.pdf
Good question.
I doubt it's simply because it hasn't been approved. There has to be something else...
Probably the same reason why BMW and MB advise against the use of low SAPS oils in their gasoline engines, at least outside of Europe.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I doubt it's simply because it hasn't been approved. There has to be something else...
Over the years, I have seen a few diesel engine oils that were never speced for gasoline engines. It's probably less common today, but it does happen. If we looked hard enough, I'm sure we could find varieties from Exxon Mobil and SOPUS that do not meet any S standards, or meet only obsolete ones.
I doubt it's simply because it hasn't been approved. There has to be something else...
Over the years, I have seen a few diesel engine oils that were never speced for gasoline engines. It's probably less common today, but it does happen. If we looked hard enough, I'm sure we could find varieties from Exxon Mobil and SOPUS that do not meet any S standards, or meet only obsolete ones.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Right, but they didn't carry explicit advice against using them in gas engines, did they?
To be honest, I don't recall. It's been a number of years since I've had to handle such types of oil, and never bothered much, at least back then, with product information sheets. All I ever did, and I still do it now, is read the specifications on the oil and see if they match the specifications for the engine. I learned the value of that at a very early age. When I was a kid, my dad had me change the oil in his garden tractor. He took off someplace, and all I could find was some Rotella straight 30 in cans. I checked the specs and it matched the manual, so I used it. He flipped, thinking I put in the wrong oil. I was able to show him the specs on the oil and the manual, which satisfied him, and my backside didn't get red.
Nowadays, people get antsy about SB oils being on the shelf near modern oils, so maybe some companies are trying to ensure that people use the proper product.
I took a quick glance at the Mobil site, and nothing like this jumped out at me. Delvac 1300 and all the Delvac 1 stuff certainly meet fairly modern gasoline specs of one sort or another. I do know that Castrol has a bunch of diesel type oils, so it doesn't surprise me that at least one isn't rated for gasoline engines. Perhaps there's an Esso or SOPUS variety out there with similar specs. Now, I'm curious, so I'll have to do some hunting.
Right, but they didn't carry explicit advice against using them in gas engines, did they?
To be honest, I don't recall. It's been a number of years since I've had to handle such types of oil, and never bothered much, at least back then, with product information sheets. All I ever did, and I still do it now, is read the specifications on the oil and see if they match the specifications for the engine. I learned the value of that at a very early age. When I was a kid, my dad had me change the oil in his garden tractor. He took off someplace, and all I could find was some Rotella straight 30 in cans. I checked the specs and it matched the manual, so I used it. He flipped, thinking I put in the wrong oil. I was able to show him the specs on the oil and the manual, which satisfied him, and my backside didn't get red.
Nowadays, people get antsy about SB oils being on the shelf near modern oils, so maybe some companies are trying to ensure that people use the proper product.
I took a quick glance at the Mobil site, and nothing like this jumped out at me. Delvac 1300 and all the Delvac 1 stuff certainly meet fairly modern gasoline specs of one sort or another. I do know that Castrol has a bunch of diesel type oils, so it doesn't surprise me that at least one isn't rated for gasoline engines. Perhaps there's an Esso or SOPUS variety out there with similar specs. Now, I'm curious, so I'll have to do some hunting.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Delvac 1300 and all the Delvac 1 stuff certainly meet fairly modern gasoline specs of one sort or another. I do know that Castrol has a bunch of diesel type oils, so it doesn't surprise me that at least one isn't rated for gasoline engines. Perhaps there's an Esso or SOPUS variety out there with similar specs. Now, I'm curious, so I'll have to do some hunting.
Delvac 1 SHC
http://www.mobil.com/Egypt-English/Lubes/PDS/GLEGENCVLMOMobil_Delvac_1_SHC_5W-40.asp
and Delvac 1 LE
http://www.mobil.com/Italy-English/Lubes/PDS/glxxencvlmomobil_delvac_1_le_5w-30.pdf
don't meet gasoline specs.
LE is only obtainable by ordering from Europe (I'm trying) but SHC can be obtained in 55 gal lots (11X5gal), even in the US, tho it's not on the US website.
Charlie
Delvac 1300 and all the Delvac 1 stuff certainly meet fairly modern gasoline specs of one sort or another. I do know that Castrol has a bunch of diesel type oils, so it doesn't surprise me that at least one isn't rated for gasoline engines. Perhaps there's an Esso or SOPUS variety out there with similar specs. Now, I'm curious, so I'll have to do some hunting.
Delvac 1 SHC
http://www.mobil.com/Egypt-English/Lubes/PDS/GLEGENCVLMOMobil_Delvac_1_SHC_5W-40.asp
and Delvac 1 LE
http://www.mobil.com/Italy-English/Lubes/PDS/glxxencvlmomobil_delvac_1_le_5w-30.pdf
don't meet gasoline specs.
LE is only obtainable by ordering from Europe (I'm trying) but SHC can be obtained in 55 gal lots (11X5gal), even in the US, tho it's not on the US website.
Charlie
Castrol Australia sent this to me...
Modern Oils in Older Engines
Neil McTavish – Australian Automotive Technology Manager Castrol
In recent times we have been asked by a number of people to comment on using
the latest oils in older engines. Questions have come mainly from car clubs but
also from some magazines, racers and engine builders. The questions relate to
wear performance on flat tappet cams. Please note, all my comments in this
article are about flat (sliding) tappets not roller followers, a different story.
Firstly let me remind people, this is Australia not the USA. I have read a number
of articles where the information clearly comes from the USA but you are left with
the impression that it is written about Australia. The internet can be misleading if
the source of the information is not clear.
I have been in the technical area of lubricants in Australia for more than 30 years.
So I am familiar with engine oil formulations since the early 1970’s and have
seen a lot of information on oil formulations back into the 1950’s.
Although Castrol is sold in more than 100 countries around the world, products
and the range of products are not the same in all countries. The oils sold in
Australia are not the same as the USA. There a range of reasons for that
including different market needs, mix of vehicles and climatic conditions. The
range and type of oils we sell in Australia are decided by people in the Australian
business not by people in the USA or Europe. The people involved are a
combination of Marketing, Sales and Technology. Our Sales and Marketing
people are just as keen to have the best products that suit our market as we are
in technology and you the customers’ desire for your vehicles.
There are two main industry oil qualification systems. These are API/ILSAC from
USA and ACEA from Europe. Both of these systems are developed jointly
between the oil industry and vehicle manufacturers. The updates reflect the latest
requirements for standard vehicles and applications. The biggest influence most
recently is the “Tier 2” emission regulations in the USA and Euro 4 in Europe.
These regulations do not come into place for petrol engines in Australia until
between July 2008 and July 2010. The US petrol classifications have two types,
ILSAC grades for GF-3, GF-4 etc. are; SAE 0w-30, 5w-30, 10w-30, 0w-20, 5w-20
and the rest, not ILSAC. The ILSAC requirements require improved fuel
efficiency and have chemical limits on Phosphorus and Sulphur. API
performance qualifications started at SB in the 1930s, currently the highest API
petrol engine specification is SM. ACEA specifications are A1/B1, A3/B3, A3/B4
and A5/B5. ACEA C1, C2 and C3 are newer low Phosphorus specifications.
The Phosphorus is limited to help maximise the life of catalytic converters for
long-term emission reduction. Sulphur mainly effects base oil type so I will not
discuss it further here.
The main reason Phosphorus is added to engine oil is for cam and tappet wear
protection. The most widely used form of Phosphorus in engine oils is in an
organometallic molecule. The material is Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate, ZDDP or
ZDTP for short. Useful molecules that include Sulphur and Phosphorus, they
perform most of the antiwear protection on steel surfaces. The most recent API
SM/ILSAC GF-4 grades have reduced the maximum allowable Phosphorus
content to 0.08% (800 PPM, Parts per Million) from 0.10%, 1000 PPM. The
0.10% limit has been in place for approx. 15 years in the USA and since 1986 in
Australia. Yes most petrol engine oils for more than 20 years in Australia have
been 0.10% Phosphorus maximum. That was as a result of an agreement
between the car industry and the oil industry in Australia. That engine oils for
petrol engines would be 0.10% Phosphorus maximum. However most oils from
the 1950’s and 60’s had lower Phosphorus content than even the latest
passenger car engine oils, i.e. it was typically 0.06% which is even lower than the
0.08% limit set by API SM.
ZDDP is a multifunctional additive; it has powerful antioxidant effect in addition to
the antiwear characteristics. The size and type of the alkyl group attached to the
Thio phosphate within the molecule influences the relative antiwear antioxidant
balance of ZDDP additive. Over time Castrol have used modified ZDDP’s that
are more intended for wear performance and substituted other materials to boost
antioxidant performance of our engine oils. So looking at Zinc and/or Phosphorus
levels alone does not tell the full story in terms of wear protection.
The majority of the Castrol passenger car lubricants sold in Australia are ACEA
qualified as well as API qualified. The ACEA requires extra valve train wear,
VTW, tests over and above API requirements. In addition most of Castrol ACEA
qualified products are 0.10% Phosphorus maximum. The same as we have used
for 20 years or more. So that is why some of our ACEA qualified oils only claim
API SL even though they pass all API SM engine performance requirements, the
Phosphorus content is above the maximum level allowed for ILSAC grades.
There has been discussion about using diesel engine oils instead of passenger
car engine oils. Some of these do currently contain higher levels of Phosphorus,
ZDDP, than passenger car qualified to API SL or SM. They have higher
Phosphorus to help minimise soot related wear. Future generations of these oils
will also have Phosphorus limits and be lower over time for the same reasons as
for passenger car engine oils. The higher level of Phosphorus is not a guarantee
of satisfactory wear protection. As I said earlier, wear performance is related to
the particular ZDDP being used. Also many of the diesel oils with higher
Phosphorus also contain higher levels of detergent and dispersant which
compete for surface area with the ZDDP which can reduce its effectiveness.
During the development of the current API SM engine tests, a high phosphorus
diesel engine oil was run in a flat tappet, push rod engine test and it failed the
wear requirements with worse results than most low Phosphorus passenger car
oils.
In Australia we have many people rebuilding older vehicles and engines. Many of
these people choose to put a modified cam into the engine when it is rebuilt. That
is often the case even though they do not plan to get involved with Motorsport
and the engine spends most of it life at low RPM. Modified cams with higher lift
often require stronger or dual valve springs. All of these modifications increase
load on the valve train and increase the likelihood of wear on cams and tappets.
The first few minutes of operation for new cam and tappets are very important.
Run-in is important for good long service life. Castrol have put considerable effort
into understanding valve train lubrication. Research has shown one of the
highest if not highest wear mode for a cam and tappets is while the engine is at
idle. Running an engine at medium speed, say 2,000 to 4,000 rpm generates
much less metal-to-metal contact between cam and tappet than at engine idle.
Also ZDDP is temperature activated so running the engine at low oil temperature
also accelerates cam and tappet wear. Some years ago a race team contacted
us after wearing out three camshafts during run-in on a dyno. They ran the oil at
approx. 50°C. We recommended take the oil to 85°C, no more cam wear issues.
In summary most of the Castrol passenger car engine oils sold in Australia are
still formulated to 0.10% Phosphorus maximum, the same as we have had for the
last 20 years but higher than was used in the 50’s and 60’s.
When running in new cams and tappets avoid idling as much as possible in the
first 30 minutes to hour of operation. Make sure the cam and tappets are prelubed
with Moly grease and oil. Try to keep engine oil temperature above 80°C.
Driving the vehicle or running the engine under load achieves that most quickly.
The cam and tappets should be run-in by 250 to 500 km. Castrol Edge Sport
25w-50, previously Formula R 25w-50 and before that GP50, is specifically part
of our performance range of engine oils for push rod, flat tappet engines. It has
demonstrated excellent wear protection on radical cam profiles. Although rated
API SG it incorporates the latest detergents and dispersants for good engine
cleanliness, contains 0.10% Phosphorus and retains components for strong wear
protection. The off-the-shelf product is widely used in competition engines.
If a full synthetic engine oil is preferred then our Castrol Edge 0W-40 or Edge
Sport 10W-60 is recommended. Again these are formulated to 0.10%
Phosphorus maximum and can be used with flat tappet followers with confidence
the same as Edge Sport 25W-50.
Modern Oils in Older Engines
Neil McTavish – Australian Automotive Technology Manager Castrol
In recent times we have been asked by a number of people to comment on using
the latest oils in older engines. Questions have come mainly from car clubs but
also from some magazines, racers and engine builders. The questions relate to
wear performance on flat tappet cams. Please note, all my comments in this
article are about flat (sliding) tappets not roller followers, a different story.
Firstly let me remind people, this is Australia not the USA. I have read a number
of articles where the information clearly comes from the USA but you are left with
the impression that it is written about Australia. The internet can be misleading if
the source of the information is not clear.
I have been in the technical area of lubricants in Australia for more than 30 years.
So I am familiar with engine oil formulations since the early 1970’s and have
seen a lot of information on oil formulations back into the 1950’s.
Although Castrol is sold in more than 100 countries around the world, products
and the range of products are not the same in all countries. The oils sold in
Australia are not the same as the USA. There a range of reasons for that
including different market needs, mix of vehicles and climatic conditions. The
range and type of oils we sell in Australia are decided by people in the Australian
business not by people in the USA or Europe. The people involved are a
combination of Marketing, Sales and Technology. Our Sales and Marketing
people are just as keen to have the best products that suit our market as we are
in technology and you the customers’ desire for your vehicles.
There are two main industry oil qualification systems. These are API/ILSAC from
USA and ACEA from Europe. Both of these systems are developed jointly
between the oil industry and vehicle manufacturers. The updates reflect the latest
requirements for standard vehicles and applications. The biggest influence most
recently is the “Tier 2” emission regulations in the USA and Euro 4 in Europe.
These regulations do not come into place for petrol engines in Australia until
between July 2008 and July 2010. The US petrol classifications have two types,
ILSAC grades for GF-3, GF-4 etc. are; SAE 0w-30, 5w-30, 10w-30, 0w-20, 5w-20
and the rest, not ILSAC. The ILSAC requirements require improved fuel
efficiency and have chemical limits on Phosphorus and Sulphur. API
performance qualifications started at SB in the 1930s, currently the highest API
petrol engine specification is SM. ACEA specifications are A1/B1, A3/B3, A3/B4
and A5/B5. ACEA C1, C2 and C3 are newer low Phosphorus specifications.
The Phosphorus is limited to help maximise the life of catalytic converters for
long-term emission reduction. Sulphur mainly effects base oil type so I will not
discuss it further here.
The main reason Phosphorus is added to engine oil is for cam and tappet wear
protection. The most widely used form of Phosphorus in engine oils is in an
organometallic molecule. The material is Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate, ZDDP or
ZDTP for short. Useful molecules that include Sulphur and Phosphorus, they
perform most of the antiwear protection on steel surfaces. The most recent API
SM/ILSAC GF-4 grades have reduced the maximum allowable Phosphorus
content to 0.08% (800 PPM, Parts per Million) from 0.10%, 1000 PPM. The
0.10% limit has been in place for approx. 15 years in the USA and since 1986 in
Australia. Yes most petrol engine oils for more than 20 years in Australia have
been 0.10% Phosphorus maximum. That was as a result of an agreement
between the car industry and the oil industry in Australia. That engine oils for
petrol engines would be 0.10% Phosphorus maximum. However most oils from
the 1950’s and 60’s had lower Phosphorus content than even the latest
passenger car engine oils, i.e. it was typically 0.06% which is even lower than the
0.08% limit set by API SM.
ZDDP is a multifunctional additive; it has powerful antioxidant effect in addition to
the antiwear characteristics. The size and type of the alkyl group attached to the
Thio phosphate within the molecule influences the relative antiwear antioxidant
balance of ZDDP additive. Over time Castrol have used modified ZDDP’s that
are more intended for wear performance and substituted other materials to boost
antioxidant performance of our engine oils. So looking at Zinc and/or Phosphorus
levels alone does not tell the full story in terms of wear protection.
The majority of the Castrol passenger car lubricants sold in Australia are ACEA
qualified as well as API qualified. The ACEA requires extra valve train wear,
VTW, tests over and above API requirements. In addition most of Castrol ACEA
qualified products are 0.10% Phosphorus maximum. The same as we have used
for 20 years or more. So that is why some of our ACEA qualified oils only claim
API SL even though they pass all API SM engine performance requirements, the
Phosphorus content is above the maximum level allowed for ILSAC grades.
There has been discussion about using diesel engine oils instead of passenger
car engine oils. Some of these do currently contain higher levels of Phosphorus,
ZDDP, than passenger car qualified to API SL or SM. They have higher
Phosphorus to help minimise soot related wear. Future generations of these oils
will also have Phosphorus limits and be lower over time for the same reasons as
for passenger car engine oils. The higher level of Phosphorus is not a guarantee
of satisfactory wear protection. As I said earlier, wear performance is related to
the particular ZDDP being used. Also many of the diesel oils with higher
Phosphorus also contain higher levels of detergent and dispersant which
compete for surface area with the ZDDP which can reduce its effectiveness.
During the development of the current API SM engine tests, a high phosphorus
diesel engine oil was run in a flat tappet, push rod engine test and it failed the
wear requirements with worse results than most low Phosphorus passenger car
oils.
In Australia we have many people rebuilding older vehicles and engines. Many of
these people choose to put a modified cam into the engine when it is rebuilt. That
is often the case even though they do not plan to get involved with Motorsport
and the engine spends most of it life at low RPM. Modified cams with higher lift
often require stronger or dual valve springs. All of these modifications increase
load on the valve train and increase the likelihood of wear on cams and tappets.
The first few minutes of operation for new cam and tappets are very important.
Run-in is important for good long service life. Castrol have put considerable effort
into understanding valve train lubrication. Research has shown one of the
highest if not highest wear mode for a cam and tappets is while the engine is at
idle. Running an engine at medium speed, say 2,000 to 4,000 rpm generates
much less metal-to-metal contact between cam and tappet than at engine idle.
Also ZDDP is temperature activated so running the engine at low oil temperature
also accelerates cam and tappet wear. Some years ago a race team contacted
us after wearing out three camshafts during run-in on a dyno. They ran the oil at
approx. 50°C. We recommended take the oil to 85°C, no more cam wear issues.
In summary most of the Castrol passenger car engine oils sold in Australia are
still formulated to 0.10% Phosphorus maximum, the same as we have had for the
last 20 years but higher than was used in the 50’s and 60’s.
When running in new cams and tappets avoid idling as much as possible in the
first 30 minutes to hour of operation. Make sure the cam and tappets are prelubed
with Moly grease and oil. Try to keep engine oil temperature above 80°C.
Driving the vehicle or running the engine under load achieves that most quickly.
The cam and tappets should be run-in by 250 to 500 km. Castrol Edge Sport
25w-50, previously Formula R 25w-50 and before that GP50, is specifically part
of our performance range of engine oils for push rod, flat tappet engines. It has
demonstrated excellent wear protection on radical cam profiles. Although rated
API SG it incorporates the latest detergents and dispersants for good engine
cleanliness, contains 0.10% Phosphorus and retains components for strong wear
protection. The off-the-shelf product is widely used in competition engines.
If a full synthetic engine oil is preferred then our Castrol Edge 0W-40 or Edge
Sport 10W-60 is recommended. Again these are formulated to 0.10%
Phosphorus maximum and can be used with flat tappet followers with confidence
the same as Edge Sport 25W-50.
Originally Posted By: m37charlie
LE is only obtainable by ordering from Europe (I'm trying) but SHC can be obtained in 55 gal lots (11X5gal), even in the US, tho it's not on the US website.
Good catch. Now that you brought it up, I do remember the SHC not being speced for gasoline engines, and it didn't show up on the website.
LE is only obtainable by ordering from Europe (I'm trying) but SHC can be obtained in 55 gal lots (11X5gal), even in the US, tho it's not on the US website.
Good catch. Now that you brought it up, I do remember the SHC not being speced for gasoline engines, and it didn't show up on the website.
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