41TE Transmission Rebuild

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As promised here is the beginning of the 41TE rebuild. This is from a 1997 dodge avenger with 186,000 miles.

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bottom of the valve body after pan and filter have been removed:
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Top side of valve body:
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Valve body removed:
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Check out the shaft wobble.. I suspect that's not a good thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBEUfFBY8LU


More to follow!
 
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Nice! Always interested in teardowns. Were those wear metals in the second to the last pick(blackish areas?)
 
Originally Posted By: Anies
Nice! Always interested in teardowns. Were those wear metals in the second to the last pick(blackish areas?)


yes all the blackened areas are normal wear particles this is why I added a trans filter to my caddy. I don't want that running around in my trans fluid.

After the rebuild this one will get a magnefine inline filter.

I forgot to post the pics of the oil pan when I originally drained the fluid before pulling the whole trans. so here you go..

These are NOT normal:

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When I was abour 20 I tried to rebuild a TH350. Infact I had it in the car 3x and out of the car 3x before I broke down and hauled it to a local trans shop
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I was really tired of R&Ring that thing.
 
Originally Posted By: Anies
Nice! Always interested in teardowns. Were those wear metals in the second to the last pick(blackish areas?)


Its clutch dust- not "metal" but normal clutch wear particles. Metal particles in an automagic are not normal.

I'll be interested in seeing what ultimately failed in there, and I don't know just how abnormal that shaft movement is. The forward end of the input shaft is basically "carried" in the splines of the convertor turbine, so some movement is OK. I don't ever remember seeing *that* much in the Torqueflite 727s I've rebuilt, though. Of course the shafts on 727s are about twice that diameter and 4x the mass- that looks like a scale model of a transmission! With as small and light as FWD transmissions are, its amazing to me that they don't blow up every 20k miles.
 
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Anies
Nice! Always interested in teardowns. Were those wear metals in the second to the last pick(blackish areas?)


Its clutch dust- not "metal" but normal clutch wear particles. Metal particles in an automagic are not normal.

I'll be interested in seeing what ultimately failed in there, and I don't know just how abnormal that shaft movement is. The forward end of the input shaft is basically "carried" in the splines of the convertor turbine, so some movement is OK. I don't ever remember seeing *that* much in the Torqueflite 727s I've rebuilt, though. Of course the shafts on 727s are about twice that diameter and 4x the mass- that looks like a scale model of a transmission! With as small and light as FWD transmissions are, its amazing to me that they don't blow up every 20k miles.



pssh its still a heavy back breaker! took two to get it on the table. Good news is the more I take apart the lighter it gets... lol. And yeah compared to a 727 this is tiny.

as far as up and down play as shown in the video I'm not sure what is considered normal. service manual gives no specs. But I suspect what I have is not normal as the clank heard in the video is the sound of the inner shaft hitting the outer shaft.

It does give specs for in/out movement which is .005 - .025 in. This trans had .030 in.
 
Originally Posted By: Texan4Life
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Anies
Nice! Always interested in teardowns. Were those wear metals in the second to the last pick(blackish areas?)


Its clutch dust- not "metal" but normal clutch wear particles. Metal particles in an automagic are not normal.

I'll be interested in seeing what ultimately failed in there, and I don't know just how abnormal that shaft movement is. The forward end of the input shaft is basically "carried" in the splines of the convertor turbine, so some movement is OK. I don't ever remember seeing *that* much in the Torqueflite 727s I've rebuilt, though. Of course the shafts on 727s are about twice that diameter and 4x the mass- that looks like a scale model of a transmission! With as small and light as FWD transmissions are, its amazing to me that they don't blow up every 20k miles.



pssh its still a heavy back breaker! took two to get it on the table. Good news is the more I take apart the lighter it gets... lol. And yeah compared to a 727 this is tiny.

as far as up and down play as shown in the video I'm not sure what is considered normal. service manual gives no specs. But I suspect what I have is not normal as the clank heard in the video is the sound of the inner shaft hitting the outer shaft.

It does give specs for in/out movement which is .005 - .025 in. This trans had .030 in.

Try hauling up an A340E. That's a real back breaker.
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Originally Posted By: Texan4Life

pssh its still a heavy back breaker! took two to get it on the table. Good news is the more I take apart the lighter it gets... lol. And yeah compared to a 727 this is tiny.


Of course when you lift a 41TE, you're lifting transmission AND differential. I wouldn't want to lift a 727 and an 8.75 center section at the same time one at a time is bad enough! Actually, the 8.75 center section probably outweighs the 727 by a good bit.

Originally Posted By: Texan4Life
as far as up and down play as shown in the video I'm not sure what is considered normal. service manual gives no specs. But I suspect what I have is not normal as the clank heard in the video is the sound of the inner shaft hitting the outer shaft.


Of course it can't do that with the converter holding it centered. I'm not sure the shaft is supported except by a single bushing when the convertor is removed, which is probably why they don't give a spec for it.

Hope it turns out well- I've always heard that these are simple to overhaul in concept... if not so simple when trying to get all the snap-rings to not snap until you're ready.
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Took a little more apart today....

front of oil pump:
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Backside of oil pump:
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with the oil pump out of the way you can see the front of the input clutch assembly:
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Side view of input clutch assembly:
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Closeup of scoring on the input clutch assembly:
jql013.jpg


Worn out No. 4 thrust washer. you can see why my in/out thrust was out of spec:
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Rear shaft of the input clutch assembly. the mashed up splines drive the planetary gears on the front sun gear assembly. Or should I say used too:
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Goodies found in the front sun gear assembly. They look to neat to be shards of metal... maybe from a roller or needle bearing:
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Front of "front carrier and rear annulus assembly":
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with the rear annulus assembly removed:
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Hey, it almost made 200k miles- that's not bad for a 41TE. Makes me feel a little more confident in the one in Wifey's 05 PT Cruiser. The Cruiser has torque management software- you can feel it cut power during upshifts. If earlier cars with the 41TE had that feature, they'd have held up a lot better. Trying too much to shave off weight/drag, resulted in low reliability without software protection... :-/

So what do you think failed first? My bet is that thrust bearing. Too much longitudinal motion then chewed up splines and bearings, which resulted in too much lateral motion that chewed up the outside of the input clutch drum. Just guessin'.
 
wow,cutting the engine torque to save the transmission? talk about an easy way out of a problem.
 
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Originally Posted By: lexus114
wow,cutting the engine torque to save the transmission? talk about an easy way out of a problem.


yeah instead of the 200,000 miles the op got out of the 41te you now might get 300,000 miles lol
 
I had this discussion on here before about the transmissions car companies use now. I dont think too many of them out their are worth a [censored]! You simple cant beat the old school day`s for the transmissions,today they wear out faster than my socks.
 
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Originally Posted By: lexus114
wow,cutting the engine torque to save the transmission? talk about an easy way out of a problem.

I'd be surprised if your car doesn't cut power during shifts too. Its just a good way to get unnaturally smooth upshifts without wearing the transmission. My Dads old 95 626 had this feature, it had a big hole in the muffler for a couple days and you could hear it cutting or retarding spark on WO upshifts... Not quite the Indycar upshift pop but kind of cool anyways.
 
It's called torque management and it's present in just bout anything these days.

And, in the high performance world I live in, transmissions have NEVER been better. More torque capacity, wider range of gearing, variable modulated lockup... man it can't get much better.
 
Originally Posted By: lexus114
wow,cutting the engine torque to save the transmission? talk about an easy way out of a problem.


Easy, and elegant now that engine torque (and even the throttle opening, as a Toyota/Lexus owner should well know ;-) ) is under control of the same computer.

Virtually every (if not EVERY) automatic transmission car on the market today cuts torque during shifts, either by retarding timing/dropping fuel injection pulses, or just by closing the throttle briefly. The ECM reduces engine output at the same time the transmission disengages one gear, then when the input/output shaft speed ratio is correct for the next gear, the clutches engage with almost no slippage and the engine torque is brought back to full value- all in a few hundred milliseconds. It first showed up in the mid/late 90s, and really became pretty ubiquitous by around model year 2000. It really is a GOOD idea- it lets the transmission designer optimize the clutches and cooling system to the normal operating loads, whereas for the 50 years prior the transmission had to be overbuilt so that it could absorb full engine torque AND dissipate the kinetic energy of the crank/rods/flywheel/torque convertor assembly as it slowed the engine down during an upshift. That's all well and good if you want to build a transmission with 3 forward gears that weighs as much as a Turbo 400, Ford C6, or Chrysler 727. And it lets you do cool things like bark the tires on every shift like my '69 does. Very fun. But when you're trying to reduce weight, reduce friction, and pack 5 or even 6 forward gears in to a transmission, it just can't be done without torque management software.
 
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