BMW N54 Twin Turbo

[shpankey]

Originally Posted By: JAG
Originally Posted By: esteve
On the drive home, I was very surprised at the high oil temps, around 240-250 degrees! Does anybody know how much cooler the oil generally runs with the factory oil cooler? You can just feel the heat radiated by these motors with the windowns down or standing outside while the car's running.

In the summer during normal driving the oil temp. in my 135i (w/ oil cooler) usually settles at 230-240 degrees. I have seen 245-250F but that was during a traffic jam in high ambient temps. Low airflow in traffic jams doesn't allow the oil cooler to help much.

Rotella-T 5W-40 is probably better to use in this engine than many other oils that do not meet BMW LL-01. I'm sticking with oil change intervals less than 4K since I'm using up a stash of Mobil 1 5W-40 Turbo Diesel Truck and I'm afraid that longer OCIs would lead to engine and PCV deposits.


I agree with JAG ^^. I basically do the same on my Direct Injected Turbo car. I'd run Redline 10w40 before I'd run the RLI stuff. saaber has some really great UOA's done with the Redline 5w40 on his D.I. Turbo. I'm running Rotella T6 right now but my plan is to get some Redline 10w40 in, hoping it will help with the intake valves build-up issues known with our cars, since it's a ester based oil.

On the cheap I'd go with the Rotella T6 though.

 

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted By: shpankey
I agree with JAG ^^. I basically do the same on my Direct Injected Turbo car. I'd run Redline 10w40 before I'd run the RLI stuff. saaber has some really great UOA's done with the Redline 5w40 on his D.I. Turbo. I'm running Rotella T6 right now but my plan is to get some Redline 10w40 in, hoping it will help with the intake valves build-up issues known with our cars, since it's a ester based oil.
On the cheap I'd go with the Rotella T6 though.


How do you know the redline is ester based? I couldn't find that information when I checked the redline MSDS sheets

 

[shpankey]

I don't know it, just seen a few posters here mention it.

 

[saaber1]

It's well established that Redline uses a blend of POE and other basestocks such as PAO. The amount of ester content is unknown. Similar to some of Motul's oils such as 300V and X-lite 0W30, we know they use ester base stocks but what % is unknown and the companies are not likely to provide that level of detail. Silkolene also.

 

[JAG]

Justifications but not 100% proof for significant ester content in Red Line are:
- the company says so
- very high density (this is a property of many esters)
- ratio of KV@100C to HTHS viscosity is very low (even compared to other oils containing no polymeric VIIs). When jpr compiled this ratio for many oils containing various base oils, it was noted that this ratio stood out as very low for those containing a large percentage of ester. This holds true even when compared to pure PAO.
- very high flashpoint
- very low volatility
- very high oxidative and thermal stability. Sure everything else in oils affects this too but this is compared to the best OTC synthetics that use good additive packages too. This is based on my own testing.
- when a drop of Red Line and equal-sized drop of other synthetics that I've heated on a thick steel plate from below, Red Line has always spread out more and faster than other synthetics of similar viscosity that I've tested that contain little to no ester. Polarity is an important factor in this test.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Also the HTHS on every RL product often seems to be head and shoulders higher than all of the usual synthetic competition. You can change viscosities with VIIs, but HTHS is harder to "fake" and often speaks to base oil qualities.

 

[Turkeybaster115]

Hey guys, I just discovered that total made a change to the INEO MC3 formula, and is using group II base oils. I am considering using Quaker state High RPM PAO based oils instead. Please take a look at this products spec and MSDS, for the N54:

Quaker state 5W 30 (Spring/Fall/Winter)
Spec: http://www.mil-specproducts.com/Documents%5C1218_PDS29.pdf
MSDS: http://www.mil-specproducts.com/Dochttp://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=newreply&Board=48&Number=1842074&what=showflat&fpart=8uments%5C1221_MSDS34.pdf

Quaker state high rpm 20W50(Summer Racing)
Spec: http://www.mil-specproducts.com/Documents%5C1219_PDS29.pdf
MSDS: http://www.mil-specproducts.com/Documents%5C1219_MSDS32.pdf

Is the 20W oil a danger to my bearings, considering it will be used during the summer at the track, and on the highway?

 

[JAG]

Originally Posted By: Turkeybaster115
Hey guys, I just discovered that total made a change to the INEO MC3 formula, and is using group II base oils. I am considering using Quaker state High RPM PAO based oils instead.

What did you see or hear to make you think that INEO MC3 uses Group II? It seems impossible because it is a full synthetic oil. Additive carrier oil may be Group I or II but that is not uncommon. Even Mobil 1 and Royal Purple use mineral oil as additive carrier oils.

Those High RPM Quaker State oils are synthetic blends (American use of the term) so they likely are mostly Group II and only contain a little synthetic. All three of those oils are no-go in the N54 in my opinion. The INEO MC3 is a better choice but probably still not ideal. Why not use something like Red Line since you will be racing?

 

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted By: JAG
Originally Posted By: Turkeybaster115
Hey guys, I just discovered that total made a change to the INEO MC3 formula, and is using group II base oils. I am considering using Quaker state High RPM PAO based oils instead.

What did you see or hear to make you think that INEO MC3 uses Group II? It seems impossible because it is a full synthetic oil. Additive carrier oil may be Group I or II but that is not uncommon. Even Mobil 1 and Royal Purple use mineral oil as additive carrier oils.

Those High RPM Quaker State oils are synthetic blends (American use of the term) so they likely are mostly Group II and only contain a little synthetic. All three of those oils are no-go in the N54 in my opinion. The INEO MC3 is a better choice but probably still not ideal. Why not use something like Red Line since you will be racing?


Look at this link, a guy copied it:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=2944235

I also e-mailed total, and they confirmed it:

No, the Shell product you sent is a synthetic blend (SB). This has group II mineral oil in it and is not 100% synthetic.

Best Regards,

Alan Denniston
Technical Services/Product Management
Total Lubricants USA, Inc.

400 Chisholm Place, Suite 418
Plano, TX 75070
ph 1-469-241-0950
cell 1-469-247-3349
fax 1-469-241-0956

Redline 5W 40 UOA in a subaru wrx sti after 2 track days, showed high levels of lead. The guys at tdiclub think its from the cam shaft. Redline had no explanation.

 

[d00df00d]

The W number pertains to cold pumpability. Once the oil is at operating temp, it doesn't matter. If you switch to a 20W oil, you'll have to take more care to drive gently until the car warms up, but that's about it.

50-weight seems a bit thick for that engine considering it's made to run on a 30-weight. I'd do a 40-weight at the most. You always want your oil to be as thin as possible, and as thick as necessary.

It's also best to stick to one oil year-round if possible.

Try to look for a good 10w-40. RLI, Red Line, and Motul 300V come to mind. Among the good synthetic brands, 10w-40 is usually one of the toughest grades, and it should be good for you year-round.

 

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
The W number pertains to cold pumpability. Once the oil is at operating temp, it doesn't matter. If you switch to a 20W oil, you'll have to take more care to drive gently until the car warms up, but that's about it.

50-weight seems a bit thick for that engine considering it's made to run on a 30-weight. I'd do a 40-weight at the most. You always want your oil to be as thin as possible, and as thick as necessary.

It's also best to stick to one oil year-round if possible.

Try to look for a good 10w-40. RLI, Red Line, and Motul 300V come to mind. Among the good synthetic brands, 10w-40 is usually one of the toughest grades, and it should be good for you year-round.


Thanks for your reply sir, but we are dealing with sever temperature issues in this vehicle, after just a few laps (290 degrees). Its worsened by the absence of an oil cooler in my car. The guys have had luck with Total Quartz racing 10W 50 holding the temps to 260 deg, at the track. I bought it and will use it this summer at the track, but since total is now changing its base oils (Economic downturn?) I don't want to be in a bind at the track.

 

[d00df00d]

Oh, yikes. Didn't realize you didn't have the cooler.

Motul makes 300V in 15w-50. RLI also has a 15w-50. I'd look at those for sure.

How cold does it get where you are? I'm thinking either of those oils would probably be okay for year-round use, too.

 

[Turkeybaster115]

It can get as cold as -10F here in the midwest, so I defintely can't use the racing oils year round. Are the 15W 50 weight oils you mentioned safe for my bearings?

 

[JAG]

Originally Posted By: Turkeybaster115
Look at this link, a guy copied it:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=2944235

No Group II base oils are implied by that MSDS. Am I missing something? I saw the mineral oil
Originally Posted By: Turkeybaster115
I also e-mailed total, and they confirmed it:

No, the Shell product you sent is a synthetic blend (SB). This has group II mineral oil in it and is not 100% synthetic.

Best Regards,

Alan Denniston
Technical Services/Product Management
Total Lubricants USA, Inc.

400 Chisholm Place, Suite 418
Plano, TX 75070
ph 1-469-241-0950
cell 1-469-247-3349
fax 1-469-241-0956


Isn't that for the Quaker State oil, not the Total oil? Shell owns Quaker State.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Turkeybaster115
It can get as cold as -10F here in the midwest, so I defintely can't use the racing oils year round.

They'll be fine. Better than most street oils of similar viscosity, actually.

300V is perfectly fine for street use, just not for long OCIs. It's not like most race oils.

The RLI stuff should be even more street friendly. It's not marketed as a race oil.


Originally Posted By: Turkeybaster115
Are the 15W 50 weight oils you mentioned safe for my bearings?

What do you mean? Why wouldn't they be?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Turkeybaster115
Originally Posted By: JAG
Originally Posted By: Turkeybaster115
Hey guys, I just discovered that total made a change to the INEO MC3 formula, and is using group II base oils. I am considering using Quaker state High RPM PAO based oils instead.

What did you see or hear to make you think that INEO MC3 uses Group II? It seems impossible because it is a full synthetic oil. Additive carrier oil may be Group I or II but that is not uncommon. Even Mobil 1 and Royal Purple use mineral oil as additive carrier oils.

Those High RPM Quaker State oils are synthetic blends (American use of the term) so they likely are mostly Group II and only contain a little synthetic. All three of those oils are no-go in the N54 in my opinion. The INEO MC3 is a better choice but probably still not ideal. Why not use something like Red Line since you will be racing?


Look at this link, a guy copied it:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=2944235

I also e-mailed total, and they confirmed it:

No, the Shell product you sent is a synthetic blend (SB). This has group II mineral oil in it and is not 100% synthetic.

Best Regards,

Alan Denniston
Technical Services/Product Management
Total Lubricants USA, Inc.

400 Chisholm Place, Suite 418
Plano, TX 75070
ph 1-469-241-0950
cell 1-469-247-3349
fax 1-469-241-0956

Redline 5W 40 UOA in a subaru wrx sti after 2 track days, showed high levels of lead. The guys at tdiclub think its from the cam shaft. Redline had no explanation.





Well, camshafts have no lead in them. Was he by chance running leaded racing fuel?

 

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted By: JAG
Originally Posted By: Turkeybaster115
I also e-mailed total, and they confirmed it:

No, the Shell product you sent is a synthetic blend (SB). This has group II mineral oil in it and is not 100% synthetic.

Best Regards,

Alan Denniston
Technical Services/Product Management
Total Lubricants USA, Inc.

400 Chisholm Place, Suite 418
Plano, TX 75070
ph 1-469-241-0950
cell 1-469-247-3349
fax 1-469-241-0956


Isn't that for the Quaker State oil, not the Total oil? Shell owns Quaker State.


Here's the full e-mail interation with Alan (total technical surpport)
ME: Dear Sir/Madam,

I exclusively use this product for my European turbo charged gasoline vehicle. Recently I have seen a new MSDS of this product:

QUARTZ INEO MC3 5W-30

Page : 1/6
SDS n° :35940-33 Version :2.03 Version of :2009-09-24
This sheet supersedes the one dated :2008-11-09

3. COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS

PREPARATION
Chemical nature : Product containing mineral oil with less than 3 % DMSO extract as measured by IP
346

Alan: Thanks for your question. Attached is the most data sheet (1/2008) vs your 2005 edition and MSDS (9/24/09) vs your (7/13/07).



It is still a full synthetic oil, although it may come from a refinery as a API group 3 oil which is legally marketed as a synthetic oil in the US and many other countries.



We and our competitors do not announce base oil changes as long as all marketing and OEM credentials remain unchanged.

Best Regards,

Alan Denniston

ME: Sir,



Thank you so much for your quick reply. One last quick question. If you look at this shell MSDSà (See Attached) Under composition it pretty much states the same thing yours states. Is it safe to assume that like this blend, your product is technically: Highly refined mineral oil, severely hydrotreated slax wax, synthetic esters, polyolefins, and addtivies. So technically a mixed base, not just mineral oil?

Alan: No, the Shell product you sent is a synthetic blend (SB). This has group II mineral oil in it and is not 100% synthetic.

Best Regards,

Alan Denniston

 

[d00df00d]

Summary:

- The Total 5w-30 contains some group III, and is still considered fully synthetic
- The SOPUS product contains group II, and is thus a synthetic blend

I see no mention of the 10w-50 you were considering.


Thus:

1. The formulation change you were concerned about, didn't in fact happen;
2. Even if it did happen for the oil you asked Total about, that wouldn't say anything about the oil you were actually going to use;
3. The Quaker State product you were considering as an alternative has exactly the trait (group II content) you were trying to avoid.


Conclusion:

I'd say you're safe using the Total 10w-50 and not switching to the Quaker State 20w-50.

 

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Summary:

- The Total 5w-30 contains some group III, and is still considered fully synthetic
- The SOPUS product contains group II, and is thus a synthetic blend

I see no mention of the 10w-50 you were considering.


Thus:

1. The formulation change you were concerned about, didn't in fact happen;
2. Even if it did happen for the oil you asked Total about, that wouldn't say anything about the oil you were actually going to use;
3. The Quaker State product you were considering as an alternative has exactly the trait (group II content) you were trying to avoid.


Conclusion:

I'd say you're safe using the Total 10w-50 and not switching to the Quaker State 20w-50.

The MSDS I used as an example in the interaction with alan, was a shell forumal synthetic 5W30 oil, not the quaker state. The quaker state 5W30/20W50 I'm considering switching to, state PAO as the base stock. Check out the links:

http://www.mil-specproducts.com/Documents/1219_MSDS32.pdf
http://www.mil-specproducts.com/Documents/1221_MSDS34.pdf
http://www.mil-specproducts.com/Documents/1221_PDS29.pdf

The only thing I'm worried about right now is what the 20W oil might do to my bearings.

 

[OVERKILL]

Polyolefin does ≠ PAO. PAO is a TYPE of polyolefin, as are POE's and any other polymer produced by a single olefin.