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High Copper on Schaffers UOA #1845093
04/04/10 06:24 PM
04/04/10 06:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 30
Central, OH
07GreyLBZ Offline OP
07GreyLBZ  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 30
Central, OH
This truck is used as a plow truck and had a high number of idle hours during this OCI. It also had 3 injectors replaced and they didn't change the oil after they did the work. This batch of oil contained 4 qts. Schaffers 9000 5w-40, 5 qts Schaffers 7000 15w-40, 1 qt Schaffers #132 EP Moly Additive, M1-303 oil filter. Blackstone Labs seem to think that the injector work may have caused the high levels of copper. Is there anything else that could possibly lead to the level of copper as shown in the report? BTW, the truck had 56,206 miles on it and the OCI was 6,507 miles. The total hours on this sample was approx. 275 hours. The lab report is listed below:

Al 2
Cr 1
FE 23
Cu 173
Pb 4
TIN 0
Moly 276
Nickel 1
Manganese 0
Silver 1
Titanium 0
Potassium 3
Boron 7
Silicon 7
Sodium 7
Calcium 2094
Magnesium 386
Phosphorus 1000
Zinc 1197
Barium 0
SUS Viscosity 79.3
cSt Viscosity @ 100C 15.36
Flashpoint 430
Fuel % <0.5
Antifreeze % 0.0
Water % 0.0
Insolubles % 0.3
TBN 6.4

Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: 07GreyLBZ] #1845110
04/04/10 06:31 PM
04/04/10 06:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,200
New Jersey
JHZR2 Offline
JHZR2  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,200
New Jersey
I can't say we see high cu in our uses of 9000...

Last edited by JHZR2; 04/04/10 06:33 PM.
Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: 07GreyLBZ] #1845135
04/04/10 06:42 PM
04/04/10 06:42 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 30,794
NY
demarpaint Offline
demarpaint  Offline
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 30,794
NY
I'm wondering why the UOA didn't pick up on the Antimony in the #132? Those hours represent more than dobule the miles driven. Other than that I'll let a UOA expert weigh in.


God Bless Our Troops

Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: demarpaint] #1845196
04/04/10 07:22 PM
04/04/10 07:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 30
Central, OH
07GreyLBZ Offline OP
07GreyLBZ  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 30
Central, OH
I'm sure that the high level of coppper isn't from the oil. I am looking for a possible engine problem before it turns into a large problem. Is there any copper in the turbo bearings? Would the increased viscosity have any negative effect?

Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: 07GreyLBZ] #1845326
04/04/10 09:06 PM
04/04/10 09:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 30
Central, OH
07GreyLBZ Offline OP
07GreyLBZ  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 30
Central, OH
I forgot to add that the truck is a 2007 2500HD w/ the 6.6 Duramax LBZ and 6 speed Allison transmission if that helps any.

Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: 07GreyLBZ] #1845515
04/05/10 04:07 AM
04/05/10 04:07 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 7,576
Indianapolis, IN
dnewton3 Offline
dnewton3  Offline
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 7,576
Indianapolis, IN
I find the readings somewhat worthy of ponderance.

You claim a lot of idle time, but the fuel dilution is low. That's obviously a good thing. But it belies the high idle time. Not saying your wrong, just find that interesting.

The insolubles are nice and low for oil with such age on it. If the oil is truly miles + hours idling, it's got some age.

The TBN is impressive, given the other topics I just ran through.

Why were the injectors replaced? I have to presume there was some type of fueling issues (typically overfueling?). But the fuel dilution and vis retention don't show any ovefueling problems. It's common to see the LB7's have injectors replaced, but not LBZ's. Why the replacements? At what point was the injector work done in relation to the last known OCI?

You silicon didn't spike either, and that's atypical of when work is done. Especially if the oil wasn't changed.

The sample was right at the universal average exposure for Dmax engines, and the Al and Pb were really nice, but the Fe and Cu were way high. Some of the Fe is likely from pushing snow; higher loads.

I hereby admit I'm not up on the Schaeffers #132. Is there anything in the additive #132 that would react with the oil cooler? Typically the cooler is associated with Cu in new trucks as they shed off the excess, but this truck is way past "new" and likely had enough OCIs to flush out what used to be "new".

The whole thing is just a contradiction of itself. Really high Cu from a well-broke-in LBZ, that had injector work which is not typical of that engine, and the oil wasn't changed but had high Cu and Fe, with all else being really well in control.

Something is amiss ...

Last edited by dnewton3; 04/05/10 04:09 AM.

The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: dnewton3] #1845530
04/05/10 04:57 AM
04/05/10 04:57 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 985
Northern, NY
Rob_Roy Offline
Rob_Roy  Offline
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 985
Northern, NY
Copper aside, it is a nice looking report. I have seen Cu in the 200 PPM range with the first use Schaeffer's 5w40 in JD diesels, since none of the other wear metals were scarey, I just kept trending it.

What did you refill the sump with?


2016 Ford Expedition 3.5 Ecoboost
2015 Subaru Legacy 3.6
2014 Subaru Outback 2.5
1999 Ford F350, V10
Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: Rob_Roy] #1845600
04/05/10 06:43 AM
04/05/10 06:43 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 30
Central, OH
07GreyLBZ Offline OP
07GreyLBZ  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 30
Central, OH

dnewton,

The injectors had to be replaced because of faulty wiring harness's on all 3 injectors. They were stuck in the closed position though. The injectors failed when the batch of oil had approx. 4,300 miles on it. However, the truck was ran for about 4 hours with the injectors malfunctioning. As far as the idle time is concerned, the time on the oil is correct as indicated by the engine hour indicator on the DIC.
Just for the life history of the truck. Currently it has 57,061 miles and 2386.6 hours on it sitting in my garage right now. I agree that the slightly elevated level of Fe could be the result of the snow plow. That really wasn't that alarmed Blackstone though. Could the bearings in the turbo consist of copper????
Rob Roy,
This was about the 4th batch of Schaffers this truck has seen in its life. Sooooo, I am stumped here. I didn't know if the oil guru's here could possibly shed some light on what might be possibly going on here.

Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: 07GreyLBZ] #1845670
04/05/10 07:56 AM
04/05/10 07:56 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 985
Northern, NY
Rob_Roy Offline
Rob_Roy  Offline
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 985
Northern, NY
You could always swap the truck over to a conventional 15w40 to see if the Cu goes down. In the meantime, contact "Salesrep" on this board. He is our Schaeffer's sponsor, and can share his knowledge on the subject.


2016 Ford Expedition 3.5 Ecoboost
2015 Subaru Legacy 3.6
2014 Subaru Outback 2.5
1999 Ford F350, V10
Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: Rob_Roy] #1845674
04/05/10 08:06 AM
04/05/10 08:06 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,563
NW Ohio
Jim Allen Offline
Jim Allen  Offline
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,563
NW Ohio
Might the installers of the injectors have used a copper-based product, such as a lubricant, anti-sieze or a sealant? That could account for the high copper.


Jim Allen
Keepin' the Good Old Days of Four Wheeling Alive
Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: Jim Allen] #1845740
04/05/10 09:32 AM
04/05/10 09:32 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,360
Phoenix, AZ
panthermike Offline
panthermike  Offline
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,360
Phoenix, AZ
What did you refill with?

I would say run another UOA on this fill, maybe the injector thing did cause this? Another UOA might help to find out.


'15 Lexus RX350; PP 0w20, 33K
'10 Impala; Frankenbrew, MG 114K
'70 F100; Valvoline 15w40/Biotech, Motorcraft

Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: Jim Allen] #1845746
04/05/10 09:37 AM
04/05/10 09:37 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 7,576
Indianapolis, IN
dnewton3 Offline
dnewton3  Offline
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 7,576
Indianapolis, IN
There is nothing really alarming about this report.

I would be inclined to OCI and see if the Cu comes down. The Fe is likely just from some heavy loading in plowing; nothing to get uptight over. It's the Cu that is just way out of whack. So much so that I suspect that it's either an errant reading, or some outside contributor such as Jim suggested. I doubt your engine is shedding Cu that much after several years of use.

Keep us informed please. You have my personal Dmax curiosity piqued.

Last edited by dnewton3; 04/06/10 03:47 AM.

The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: dnewton3] #1845953
04/05/10 01:13 PM
04/05/10 01:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 30
Central, OH
07GreyLBZ Offline OP
07GreyLBZ  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 30
Central, OH
Thanks for the information. I will call the dealership that did the work and see if the copper based lubricant might be the case. Also, I refilled using 9 qts Schaffers 7000 15w-40 with 1 qt Schaffers #132 EP Moly Additive. I did this to keep the the OCI as close to apples to apples as I can. I agree, everything else looked really good. I normally run this set-up out to 10K miles without much thought. I just thought that I'd run an analysis on this batch of oil because of the injector failures looking primarily for excessive fuel. On a side note, I do use the Schaffers Diesel treat 2000 mixing 3 oz. with 26 gallons of fuel.

Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: 07GreyLBZ] #1850486
04/09/10 06:41 AM
04/09/10 06:41 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,613
lllinois
salesrep Offline
salesrep  Offline
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,613
lllinois
Turbo bearings is a possibility or injector installer stuff. The title is a bit misleading as I don't think the Schaeffers 9000 or 700 has anything to do with the high reading. High copper readings tend to be "flukey" as well. See what the next one says.


High quality Specialized Lubricants pay for themselves!
Re: High Copper on Schaffers UOA [Re: salesrep] #1856853
04/13/10 10:44 PM
04/13/10 10:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 30
Central, OH
07GreyLBZ Offline OP
07GreyLBZ  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 30
Central, OH
Salesrep,

I agree that the oil most likely isn't the cause for the copper reading. I am going to take another sample around 4K miles to see if the copper is a fluke as you suggested. There are numerous variables that "could" explain the copper with the faulty injectors being replaced.
As dnewton has previously said, the Iron is most likely due to the heavy loads placed by the snow removal. Otherwise, the UOA looked pretty good. I have been happy so far with the Schaeffers products that I've used.
The next UOA will be a lot of highway miles with a little towing mixed in. Hopefully everything will balance out and the engine will return a good UOA so I can get back out to the 10K+ drain intervals again.

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