I'd probably be tempted to run a Fram if I only had a choice between Fram and ecore. I think it's only because the ST ecores are priced 60 cents less that they don't get the bashing that Fram gets. It makes no sense to me though because if you are going to run and off brand filter anyway, Purolator has some in the same price range and with traditional construstion. It doesn't really make sense to me to choose an ecore over a Purolator Classic over 60 cents either, except if you are like labman and only want american.
ST3980 Cut Open - When will it end?
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Originally Posted By: labman
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: Colt45ws
What foreign material. The missing material never existed in the first place.
Maybe flaws like that in the center cage is what caused the one documented instance of the Ecore that collapsed and ruin an engine.
You mean the crate engine the owner destroyed by blocking off the bypass? That is the best you have to support your anti Champ jihad?
But that shouldn't normally crush a filter like that. I'm still looking for evidence that without a working filter bypass, you will get 80+ psid with BBC and 1 quart filter. The problem that I had was the claim was dismissed without any real proof the filter saw that kind of psid. What if the filter had a bypass and failed? Should it still collapse and wouldn't they still dismiss it?
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: Colt45ws
What foreign material. The missing material never existed in the first place.
Maybe flaws like that in the center cage is what caused the one documented instance of the Ecore that collapsed and ruin an engine.
You mean the crate engine the owner destroyed by blocking off the bypass? That is the best you have to support your anti Champ jihad?
But that shouldn't normally crush a filter like that. I'm still looking for evidence that without a working filter bypass, you will get 80+ psid with BBC and 1 quart filter. The problem that I had was the claim was dismissed without any real proof the filter saw that kind of psid. What if the filter had a bypass and failed? Should it still collapse and wouldn't they still dismiss it?
They revved a cold engine with 20W50 and a blocked bypass. That would be abuse.
I can't imagine somebody with good arguments bringing up a weak one like that. I guess he figured everybody forgot about the abuse.
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Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: labman
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: Colt45ws
What foreign material. The missing material never existed in the first place.
Maybe flaws like that in the center cage is what caused the one documented instance of the Ecore that collapsed and ruin an engine.
You mean the crate engine the owner destroyed by blocking off the bypass? That is the best you have to support your anti Champ jihad?
But that shouldn't normally crush a filter like that. I'm still looking for evidence that without a working filter bypass, you will get 80+ psid with BBC and 1 quart filter. The problem that I had was the claim was dismissed without any real proof the filter saw that kind of psid. What if the filter had a bypass and failed? Should it still collapse and wouldn't they still dismiss it?
Not hard to imagine at all. It's real simple. Too heavy an oil with too cold a temp with too high a volume pump with no bypass valve. It turns media into a sail.
The static view of the physics involved is one thing, the relief valve and the bypass valve allow slack in an otherwise solid fluid train. Eliminate either one and there's potential for catastrophic events. Snap an oil pump shaft ..collapse a center tube.
Surely you've seen collapsed center tubes before. How did that occur? Now if you're questioning the reported stress limits and how they were reached, that may be more of a dynamic issue. For example one can exceed stress limits on some material if one adds .5ozF at a time. Snap it right up to the limit in .1 seconds ..and that figure isn't valid anymore.
Plastic rad tanks are stronger than the metal tanks they replaced. Apply distorting forces to them and they just aren't going to bend. To the outside observer (in the midst of such forces) the plastic tank is weaker.
Originally Posted By: labman
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: Colt45ws
What foreign material. The missing material never existed in the first place.
Maybe flaws like that in the center cage is what caused the one documented instance of the Ecore that collapsed and ruin an engine.
You mean the crate engine the owner destroyed by blocking off the bypass? That is the best you have to support your anti Champ jihad?
But that shouldn't normally crush a filter like that. I'm still looking for evidence that without a working filter bypass, you will get 80+ psid with BBC and 1 quart filter. The problem that I had was the claim was dismissed without any real proof the filter saw that kind of psid. What if the filter had a bypass and failed? Should it still collapse and wouldn't they still dismiss it?
Not hard to imagine at all. It's real simple. Too heavy an oil with too cold a temp with too high a volume pump with no bypass valve. It turns media into a sail.
The static view of the physics involved is one thing, the relief valve and the bypass valve allow slack in an otherwise solid fluid train. Eliminate either one and there's potential for catastrophic events. Snap an oil pump shaft ..collapse a center tube.
Surely you've seen collapsed center tubes before. How did that occur? Now if you're questioning the reported stress limits and how they were reached, that may be more of a dynamic issue. For example one can exceed stress limits on some material if one adds .5ozF at a time. Snap it right up to the limit in .1 seconds ..and that figure isn't valid anymore.
Plastic rad tanks are stronger than the metal tanks they replaced. Apply distorting forces to them and they just aren't going to bend. To the outside observer (in the midst of such forces) the plastic tank is weaker.
We been through this before. Typically psid with cold oil from the tests we have actually seen are in the 20-30 psid region tops, not 80 psid. 80 psid is a lot of pressure that few BBC pumps would put out. As superbusa points outs not a lot of flow is likely to be happening with cold oil while the oil pump hits pressure relief. So for 80 psid, the filter had to flow basically 0 oil despite over 80 psi of head pressure. I'm not saying it's not possible I'm just saying it's not a given. The guy did not have an oil filter failure until he used ecore for the first time.
Wasn't it a just out of the crate new engine with no previous successful experience?
As I recall he said he had ran the engine for a year or two with ACDelco Classics and this was the first time he used the ecore. I don't remember if it failed on the first oil change with the ecore, but I was thinking he had ran it some before, but not sure.
All I'm saying even if the filter did see beyond spec 80 psid, the wide gaps on the nylon cage and fiber end caps don't seem to make the filter element as a system as strong as metal end caps and a metal center tube with tight spacing, despite the nylon cage possibly being stronger by itself. And the failure mode might be different from an all metal construction that might just collapse in the center yet still flow oil to the engine.
All I'm saying even if the filter did see beyond spec 80 psid, the wide gaps on the nylon cage and fiber end caps don't seem to make the filter element as a system as strong as metal end caps and a metal center tube with tight spacing, despite the nylon cage possibly being stronger by itself. And the failure mode might be different from an all metal construction that might just collapse in the center yet still flow oil to the engine.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I'd probably be tempted to run a Fram if I only had a choice between Fram and ecore.
I think I agree. Not that I'd really buy Fram either though.
So, the three e-cores I still have on the shelf...should I use them? Or toss them?
I'd probably be tempted to run a Fram if I only had a choice between Fram and ecore.
I think I agree. Not that I'd really buy Fram either though.
So, the three e-cores I still have on the shelf...should I use them? Or toss them?
Originally Posted By: miraCRD
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I'd probably be tempted to run a Fram if I only had a choice between Fram and ecore.
I think I agree. Not that I'd really buy Fram either though.
So, the three e-cores I still have on the shelf...should I use them? Or toss them?
I think the odds are they will be OK, but I can understand you not wanting to run them. You get big bonus points for running them and cutting them open and posting pics
. But if you're just going to throw them out if you could cut them open that would be good too.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I'd probably be tempted to run a Fram if I only had a choice between Fram and ecore.
I think I agree. Not that I'd really buy Fram either though.
So, the three e-cores I still have on the shelf...should I use them? Or toss them?
I think the odds are they will be OK, but I can understand you not wanting to run them. You get big bonus points for running them and cutting them open and posting pics
I wouldn't panic, go ahead and use them.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
We been through this before. Typically psid with cold oil from the tests we have actually seen are in the 20-30 psid region tops, not 80 psid. 80 psid is a lot of pressure that few BBC pumps would put out. As superbusa points outs not a lot of flow is likely to be happening with cold oil while the oil pump hits pressure relief. So for 80 psid, the filter had to flow basically 0 oil despite over 80 psi of head pressure. I'm not saying it's not possible I'm just saying it's not a given.
+1 ... and to add, I think the only way the filter could have seen a 70~80 PSID "spike" is if the engine was at idle and then basically hit redline in a spit second. The RPM condition you might see at the drag strip.
When I'm at the drag strip, cars sit for a long time in the staging lane and I highly doubt the oil if at full operating temperature. Then they roll up and do a redline burnout, and then take off from the line. So there are instances of near instant pressure build-up on the inlet side of the filter. This could potentially cause a high PSID spike because the thicker oil can't instantly move in reaction to the positive displacement pump building pressure. Also, the pressure relief valve may lag some and this might cause a pump supply pressure higher than the bypass valve setting.
Put both of those factors on top of each other and you might see a second or two of near pump pressure PSID on the element.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
The guy did not have an oil filter failure until he used ecore for the first time.
That's ins testing ... so if that's the case, other non-Ecore style filters were put under the same conditions, but survived.
I might email Purolator and ask them what the max PSID their filters can withstand. Someone should email Champ Labs and ask them what the max PSID their Ecores can take. If it's only 70 or 80 PSID, I'd consider that an under design issue as many engines may be able to cause a high PSID spike in the oil filter as I've described above.
We been through this before. Typically psid with cold oil from the tests we have actually seen are in the 20-30 psid region tops, not 80 psid. 80 psid is a lot of pressure that few BBC pumps would put out. As superbusa points outs not a lot of flow is likely to be happening with cold oil while the oil pump hits pressure relief. So for 80 psid, the filter had to flow basically 0 oil despite over 80 psi of head pressure. I'm not saying it's not possible I'm just saying it's not a given.
+1 ... and to add, I think the only way the filter could have seen a 70~80 PSID "spike" is if the engine was at idle and then basically hit redline in a spit second. The RPM condition you might see at the drag strip.
When I'm at the drag strip, cars sit for a long time in the staging lane and I highly doubt the oil if at full operating temperature. Then they roll up and do a redline burnout, and then take off from the line. So there are instances of near instant pressure build-up on the inlet side of the filter. This could potentially cause a high PSID spike because the thicker oil can't instantly move in reaction to the positive displacement pump building pressure. Also, the pressure relief valve may lag some and this might cause a pump supply pressure higher than the bypass valve setting.
Put both of those factors on top of each other and you might see a second or two of near pump pressure PSID on the element.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
The guy did not have an oil filter failure until he used ecore for the first time.
That's ins testing ... so if that's the case, other non-Ecore style filters were put under the same conditions, but survived.
I might email Purolator and ask them what the max PSID their filters can withstand. Someone should email Champ Labs and ask them what the max PSID their Ecores can take. If it's only 70 or 80 PSID, I'd consider that an under design issue as many engines may be able to cause a high PSID spike in the oil filter as I've described above.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
All I'm saying even if the filter did see beyond spec 80 psid, the wide gaps on the nylon cage and fiber end caps don't seem to make the filter element as a system as strong as metal end caps and a metal center tube with tight spacing, despite the nylon cage possibly being stronger by itself. And the failure mode might be different from an all metal construction that might just collapse in the center yet still flow oil to the engine.
Based on what I said above, I would NOT recommend anyone racing their cars, even if bone stock, use an Ecore filter. Think about it. You're idling at minimal oil flow from the pump, then you instantly floor it to redline and the positive displacement pump goes full bore and the whole oiling system has to react ... but it can't react as fast as the pump can build pressure, and therefore you could possibly get a near pump pressure PSID spike long enough to fail an Ecore design.
All I'm saying even if the filter did see beyond spec 80 psid, the wide gaps on the nylon cage and fiber end caps don't seem to make the filter element as a system as strong as metal end caps and a metal center tube with tight spacing, despite the nylon cage possibly being stronger by itself. And the failure mode might be different from an all metal construction that might just collapse in the center yet still flow oil to the engine.
Based on what I said above, I would NOT recommend anyone racing their cars, even if bone stock, use an Ecore filter. Think about it. You're idling at minimal oil flow from the pump, then you instantly floor it to redline and the positive displacement pump goes full bore and the whole oiling system has to react ... but it can't react as fast as the pump can build pressure, and therefore you could possibly get a near pump pressure PSID spike long enough to fail an Ecore design.
I agree with you. The nylon cage itself might be strong, but is the whole filter element as a unit with wide spaced center cage and fiber end caps as strong? With steel end caps and a steel center tube with very tight spacing, it seems that even if a psid burst happened at worst the filter media would flatten some in the middle, but not come crashing through and lodge length-wise into the filter exit blocking oil flow.
I've never ever heard any credible stories of all metal filters causing engine failure. And some of these were ran with a blocked filter bypass not that I recommend it. Well except for the Amsoil claim, but i didn't see any evidence that the filter actually failed.
I've never ever heard any credible stories of all metal filters causing engine failure. And some of these were ran with a blocked filter bypass not that I recommend it. Well except for the Amsoil claim, but i didn't see any evidence that the filter actually failed.
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Originally Posted By: mechanicx
We been through this before. Typically psid with cold oil from the tests we have actually seen are in the 20-30 psid region tops, not 80 psid. 80 psid is a lot of pressure that few BBC pumps would put out. As superbusa points outs not a lot of flow is likely to be happening with cold oil while the oil pump hits pressure relief. So for 80 psid, the filter had to flow basically 0 oil despite over 80 psi of head pressure. I'm not saying it's not possible I'm just saying it's not a given. The guy did not have an oil filter failure until he used ecore for the first time.
Yes, we have been through this before. I'm sure that you can also look at a number of instances where pressures produced are in excess of the pressure relief limits of the pump. Go look at the high volume Soobie application with the 15gpm oil pump. Go look at any 70's through 80's Porsche that has a relief limit of (something like) 100psi ..but since the engineers spec'd a 50 weight, the thing is peaking 135 for the first 10 minutes of operation.
Never heard of anything like that? Go and reread Bowtie's thread and reread the fact that the kid REVVED the cold engine up showing off.
..or you can choose to assume that it was a lame cage when even posters who don't like the thing have reported standing on it without it breaking.
You'll not hear me defend the lame defects we've seen, but I'll really try not fabricate truth from "wants".
We been through this before. Typically psid with cold oil from the tests we have actually seen are in the 20-30 psid region tops, not 80 psid. 80 psid is a lot of pressure that few BBC pumps would put out. As superbusa points outs not a lot of flow is likely to be happening with cold oil while the oil pump hits pressure relief. So for 80 psid, the filter had to flow basically 0 oil despite over 80 psi of head pressure. I'm not saying it's not possible I'm just saying it's not a given. The guy did not have an oil filter failure until he used ecore for the first time.
Yes, we have been through this before. I'm sure that you can also look at a number of instances where pressures produced are in excess of the pressure relief limits of the pump. Go look at the high volume Soobie application with the 15gpm oil pump. Go look at any 70's through 80's Porsche that has a relief limit of (something like) 100psi ..but since the engineers spec'd a 50 weight, the thing is peaking 135 for the first 10 minutes of operation.
Never heard of anything like that? Go and reread Bowtie's thread and reread the fact that the kid REVVED the cold engine up showing off.
..or you can choose to assume that it was a lame cage when even posters who don't like the thing have reported standing on it without it breaking.
You'll not hear me defend the lame defects we've seen, but I'll really try not fabricate truth from "wants".
Fair enough but until the oil, oil pump and oil filter psid in question is actually tested and the numbers measured one is assuming either way. Also the nylon cage's strength does not really represent the filter element as a unit's strength, that's why we've seen ecore media blowouts.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
..or you can choose to assume that it was a lame cage when even posters who don't like the thing have reported standing on it without it breaking.
I tried standing on an E-core cage from a SuperTech ST3506... it broke into a hundred pieces on the garage floor (I weigh 220+ lbs, but it broke way before I put all my weight on it).
Point is, if the thing ever did break you'd get a hundred shards of nylon rumbling around in your engine, blocking off oil passages, etc. The core does not deform under stress, it just breaks.
..or you can choose to assume that it was a lame cage when even posters who don't like the thing have reported standing on it without it breaking.
I tried standing on an E-core cage from a SuperTech ST3506... it broke into a hundred pieces on the garage floor (I weigh 220+ lbs, but it broke way before I put all my weight on it).
Point is, if the thing ever did break you'd get a hundred shards of nylon rumbling around in your engine, blocking off oil passages, etc. The core does not deform under stress, it just breaks.
Originally Posted By: danthaman1980
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
..or you can choose to assume that it was a lame cage when even posters who don't like the thing have reported standing on it without it breaking.
I tried standing on an E-core cage from a SuperTech ST3506... it broke into a hundred pieces on the garage floor (I weigh 220+ lbs, but it broke way before I put all my weight on it).
Point is, if the thing ever did break you'd get a hundred shards of nylon rumbling around in your engine, blocking off oil passages, etc. The core does not deform under stress, it just breaks.
Didn't Champ Labs come back saying the filter was subjected to 70~80 PSID and therefore the cage failed? If that's the case, then doesn't that sound somewhat low if indeed an idle-to-high engine RPM with cold oil can possibly produce that level of a PSID spike?
Like I said earlier, I'd like to see what Champ Labs answer is to the following question: "What is the maximum PSID an Ecore filter can withstand before the media or center cage fails?". They must have failure analysis and even testing to failure to back-up their analysis.
They claimed the 70~80 PSID was the cause ... so that tells me the design limit is at that level.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
..or you can choose to assume that it was a lame cage when even posters who don't like the thing have reported standing on it without it breaking.
I tried standing on an E-core cage from a SuperTech ST3506... it broke into a hundred pieces on the garage floor (I weigh 220+ lbs, but it broke way before I put all my weight on it).
Point is, if the thing ever did break you'd get a hundred shards of nylon rumbling around in your engine, blocking off oil passages, etc. The core does not deform under stress, it just breaks.
Didn't Champ Labs come back saying the filter was subjected to 70~80 PSID and therefore the cage failed? If that's the case, then doesn't that sound somewhat low if indeed an idle-to-high engine RPM with cold oil can possibly produce that level of a PSID spike?
Like I said earlier, I'd like to see what Champ Labs answer is to the following question: "What is the maximum PSID an Ecore filter can withstand before the media or center cage fails?". They must have failure analysis and even testing to failure to back-up their analysis.
They claimed the 70~80 PSID was the cause ... so that tells me the design limit is at that level.
Originally Posted By: Colt45ws
What foreign material. The missing material never existed in the first place.
did you not read the other threads?? media man!!!!
What foreign material. The missing material never existed in the first place.
did you not read the other threads?? media man!!!!
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