Toyota T-IV ATF Recommendations

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Hi folks,

My 2006 Toyota Camry LE 4-cylinder is coming up on 60,000 miles. The manual and automatic transmission dipstick both state that the fluid is good for the life of the transmission. My Haynes manual, however, states that the transmission fluid should be changed every 60,000 miles. As I prefer to err on the side of caution, I'm going to change the fluid at 60,000 miles even though the fluid is still bright red on the dipstick.

Unfortunately, Toyota T-IV ATF is relatively pricey, and costs about $9/quart at the local Toyota dealer. None of the local auto-parts stores have T-IV or Mobil 3309, which is evidently an identical replacement.

AutoZone has Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF that claims to be "suitable for" transmissions that require T-IV, as well as a huge list of other transmission fluid specs. It's also cheaper, at $7.69/quart locally. I'm a fan of Mobil products, so this looks promising, though the lack of T-IV-specific approval (as opposed to being "suitable for", as declared by Mobil) makes me a bit skeptical. Would Mobil 1 ATF be satisfactory in this case?

Wal-Mart also has a multi-vehicle ATF (their Dexron IV stuff) that, like Mobil, claims to be "suitable for" transmissions calling for T-IV. It's in the $3.50-$4.50/quart range (I didn't write down the price, and forgot the exact price -- it was rather affordable though). Not bad, but again I'm a bit skeptical of the "suitable for" wording.

All things being equal, I'd probably go for the Toyota fluid just to be on the safe side. However, prices are different, and I need to figure out if the extra cost for "genuine" T-IV is worth it. If the Mobil 1 ATF is actually better (for whatever definition of "better" can be applied to ATF), then it'd be beneficial to get a better product at a lower price.

Any thoughts?

On a related topic, the power steering system of my Camry calls for Dexron-type ATF as a working fluid. My understanding is that any Dexron-type fluid (e.g. Dexron III, Dexron IV, etc.) would be satisfactory. Is there any reason why I should use Dexron III as opposed to the newer Dexron IV fluid?

Thanks!
 
DexronVI is backspec'd by GM for THEIR transmissions.....as an upgrade to DexronIII. Since seal compatibility issues can exist, I would stick with a full synth DexronIII equivalent for the PSF.

If you're shopping at the local stores, Mobil1, Valvoline Maxlife, Castrol Import, Castrol Highmileage...are some of your ATF options. If you shop online, consider Amsoil, Redline, Amalie, RoyalPurple..

At 60k, you need a complete fluid exchange. I wouldn't call 60k erring on the safe side. Its pretty negligent to most transmissions. A 30k flush is erring on the safe side.
 
Originally Posted By: heypete
Hi folks,

Unfortunately, Toyota T-IV ATF is relatively pricey, and costs about $9/quart at the local Toyota dealer


Thats a crazy price I get mine for 4.17/quart at my local dealer. I usually just stop by every other month and stock up on 4 quarts and a crush washer. Under 20bucks out the door...
I've tried to hunt down mobil 3309 and the local distributor in burlington told me he cant get it...
 
I've seen Pennzoil ATF IV at Pepboys for 4-5 dollars a quart,

For the power steering you can use universal power steering fluid or Dexron III- should be less than Dexron IV
 
Originally Posted By: unDummy
DexronVI is backspec'd by GM for THEIR transmissions.....as an upgrade to DexronIII. Since seal compatibility issues can exist, I would stick with a full synth DexronIII equivalent for the PSF.


There is no mention on the PSF cap as to the type of Dexron ATF required, though the Haynes manual does state that "Dexron III ATF" is called for. I was considering using Dexron III, but IV is similarly priced and, as you mention, claims to be backwards compatible.

Quote:
At 60k, you need a complete fluid exchange. I wouldn't call 60k erring on the safe side. Its pretty negligent to most transmissions. A 30k flush is erring on the safe side.


As stated above, both the owner's manual and transmission dipstick state something to the effect that "the ATF never needs to be changed under normal driving conditions". I would imagine that Toyota knows what they're doing if they're making such a claim, and I consider it "erring on the safe side" to change the fluid at the interval specified in the Haynes manual (which covers the 2002-2006 model years for the Camry, Avalon, Solar, and Lexus ES 300/330 so there may be some variation for each specific model) rather than relying on the fluid being good for a "lifetime".

As for needing a "complete fluid exchange", neither the owner's manual, Toyota service manual, nor Haynes manual make any mention of such a requirement. Care to cite your source for such a claim?

Originally Posted By: Big_Kat
Thats a crazy price I get mine for 4.17/quart at my local dealer. I usually just stop by every other month and stock up on 4 quarts and a crush washer. Under 20bucks out the door...


Seriously. There's only two Toyota dealers here in Tucson, and I don't think they feel the need to offer competitive prices on their products. Considering the amount of business they do (quite a bit, last I checked), their high prices don't seem to be deterring anyone.

If I could get the Toyota T-IV for that price, I'd have no problem whatsoever with using the genuine stuff.
 
Originally Posted By: heypete

Unfortunately, Toyota T-IV ATF is relatively pricey, and costs about $9/quart at the local Toyota dealer. None of the local auto-parts stores have T-IV or Mobil 3309, which is evidently an identical replacement.
Shop around, shop around, shop around. The local Lexus dealer wants that $9/qt price, the local Toyota dealer wants something like $4.50-5.00/qt, and this is within the past couple of months.
Get the T-IV.
 
Correction to self: Evidently the correct characters after the name of the latest version of Dexron is "VI" not "IV". I was thinking of roman numerals.
 
If Toyota knew what they were doing, we wouldn't have rust bucket Tundra/Tacomas or all those unintended acceleration 'gas pedal' issues now, would we?

I could care less what Toyota recommends for intervals. Lack of maintenance will lead to issues in the long run, especially for anyone that wants to keep the vehicle a long time.

My old Camry required 7500mile oil change intervals and once all the sludge monsters showed up, they updated the interval to 5000miles. Trust an automaker that changes intervals or recants their earlier recommendations???

Preventive maintenance is your choice. Walking around with the owners manual thinking its some kind of religious book is foolish!

I 'cite' my 25 years of mechanical repairs on vehicles "owned" by negligent clueless people. Throw in too many years working in manufacturing those parts for these automakers.

UOA your old ATF for your own "claim citing"! The UOA is more important than ANYTHING printed in your owners manual and anything I say. Prove it to yourself with the UOA.

When does your warranty expire?
 
If your hand is being forced to pay that much for T-IV, then you might as well spend the same and get the Amsoil ATF, which most people consider to be a superior fluid. Red Line and Schaeffers also make excellent ATF fluids around the same price point. I'd use any of those three products any day plus Sunday before I used the Toyota fluid. I use the Amsoil ATF in both of our 06 Toyotas, and love it.
 
Originally Posted By: unDummy
If Toyota knew what they were doing, we wouldn't have rust bucket Tundra/Tacomas or all those unintended acceleration 'gas pedal' issues now, would we?

I could care less what Toyota recommends for intervals. Lack of maintenance will lead to issues in the long run, especially for anyone that wants to keep the vehicle a long time.

My old Camry required 7500mile oil change intervals and once all the sludge monsters showed up, they updated the interval to 5000miles. Trust an automaker that changes intervals or recants their earlier recommendations???

Preventive maintenance is your choice. Walking around with the owners manual thinking its some kind of religious book is foolish!

I 'cite' my 25 years of mechanical repairs on vehicles "owned" by negligent clueless people. Throw in too many years working in manufacturing those parts for these automakers.

UOA your old ATF for your own "claim citing"! The UOA is more important than ANYTHING printed in your owners manual and anything I say. Prove it to yourself with the UOA.

When does your warranty expire?


Preach on!
 
Originally Posted By: unDummy
My old Camry required 7500mile oil change intervals and once all the sludge monsters showed up, they updated the interval to 5000miles. Trust an automaker that changes intervals or recants their earlier recommendations???


They've also increased the interval on new Camrys to 10,000 miles. What's your point?

Technology changes and problems are corrected.

Quote:
Preventive maintenance is your choice. Walking around with the owners manual thinking its some kind of religious book is foolish!


Perhaps, but it's also widely considered to be a good place to start when considering maintenance.

In this particular case, both the manual and dipstick say that no replacement is necessary under normal conditions (my driving is almost exclusively under the "normal" conditions they list). The Toyota Scheduled Maintenance Guide website only mentions "inspecting" the fluid under normal conditions, but only mentions changing it if used for towing or other severe conditions.

The Haynes manual lists 60,000 miles as the appropriate interval to replace the fluid (but makes no mention of flushing it). All the other service intervals seem to match with the Toyota recommendations, which tend to be on the conservative side.

Honestly, it seems rather silly to not only change a "lifetime" fluid under normal circumstances at half of the interval recommended in both the Haynes manual (for normal service) and the owner's manual (for severe service/towing), but also to suggest a complete flush, particularly when the fluid is as red as my fiancee's 2010 RAV4 (which also uses T-IV).

Quote:
I 'cite' my 25 years of mechanical repairs on vehicles "owned" by negligent clueless people. Throw in too many years working in manufacturing those parts for these automakers


Fair enough. Do you have any observations about this particular make and model of vehicle? Different vehicles and components behave differently (e.g. some might require more frequent transmission fluid changes, or be harder on oil than another).

Quote:
UOA your old ATF for your own "claim citing"! The UOA is more important than ANYTHING printed in your owners manual and anything I say. Prove it to yourself with the UOA.


Indeed. I intend to send a sample off to Blackstone to see what they have to say.

Quote:
When does your warranty expire?


5-years/60,000 miles. In my case, I'll reach 60,000 miles before 5 years. I'm currently at 52,400 miles.

Originally Posted By: hate2work

If your hand is being forced to pay that much for T-IV, then you might as well spend the same and get the Amsoil ATF, which most people consider to be a superior fluid. Red Line and Schaeffers also make excellent ATF fluids around the same price point. I'd use any of those three products any day plus Sunday before I used the Toyota fluid. I use the Amsoil ATF in both of our 06 Toyotas, and love it.


I'm skeptical of Amsoil for a variety of reasons which I won't get into here, though I understand that there are many who swear by them.

Personally, I'd rather use something that's readily available at local retail stores rather than rely upon mail-order sources. Of course, mail-order sources can often have better pricing, but I prefer having the option of local purchases if needed.
 
HeyPete-

Your responses to everyone's advice is bordering on trolling. I don't mean to incite anything but you came here looking for advice, it was given, and for some reason you think that we are wrong.

Lifetime fluid a is scam to make people thinking their maintenance cost will be less than it truly is. It's a race to the bottom to see who can make their car seem the appliance-like/disposable. The OEMs know that their fluid will last through the warranty and could care less if makes it 10miles afterward or 100,000 miles.

If you search through this section, you will see that there are several choices you can run. Over the counter Mobil1 ATF, Castrol, Valvoline. A little bit more, and arguably a little bit better, through mail order you have the Redline choices.

You will also read that most people advise adding at least an in-line filter, if not a full spin-on kit, and a trans cooler if your car didn't come with one.

'Oh but Toyota didn't build my car with these, they must know better!' - See my 2nd paragraph
 
Originally Posted By: NYSteve
Your responses to everyone's advice is bordering on trolling. I don't mean to incite anything but you came here looking for advice, it was given, and for some reason you think that we are wrong.

Are you claiming that I'm trolling because I disagree with unDummy's assertion that changing the ATF at 60,000 miles (in accordance with the Haynes manual's recommended interval) rather than getting a total transmission flush every 30,000 miles is "pretty negligent", when the transmission dipstick, owner's manual, Toyota service manual, and Toyota website all claim that even a fluid change isn't needed under normal operating conditions? Really?

Is it trolling to ask someone making such assertions for some source to back up their claims?

While anecdotes and personal claims can be useful, I much prefer relying on actual, verifiable facts when it comes to the operation of my vehicle.

Quote:
Lifetime fluid a is scam to make people thinking their maintenance cost will be less than it truly is. It's a race to the bottom to see who can make their car seem the appliance-like/disposable. The OEMs know that their fluid will last through the warranty and could care less if makes it 10miles afterward or 100,000 miles.


Perhaps, but I suspect that any reasonable car manufacturer will recognize how much having a reputation for quality and reliability -- even after the warranty expires -- will benefit them, and not make extraordinary claims without some basis in actual experience and testing.

Surely if it was such a scam and such transmissions were failing out of warranty more frequently, there'd be some mention of it somewhere.

Quote:
If you search through this section, you will see that there are several choices you can run. Over the counter Mobil1 ATF, Castrol, Valvoline. A little bit more, and arguably a little bit better, through mail order you have the Redline choices.


Thank you.

I did some searching here before I posted and found those recommendations, but I had more specific questions that I thought justified a new post.

Quote:
You will also read that most people advise adding at least an in-line filter, if not a full spin-on kit, and a trans cooler if your car didn't come with one.

'Oh but Toyota didn't build my car with these, they must know better!' - See my 2nd paragraph


Could you cite a reliable source that indicates a reasonable benefit that such a setup would have over the standard transmission filter and magnets that come from the factory?

Honestly, that advice sounds remarkably like the response I got when I asked a simple question in a different forum here at BITOG about what recommendations people had for a decent, light-duty, inexpensive set of snow chains: several people recommended chains costing several hundred dollars, while another gave a list of winter emergency supplies that would be more suitable for an antarctic expedition and leave little room for the actual cargo I needed to bring along.

My Camry is used for ordinary driving, and isn't operated under extreme conditions. My original question was rather simple though specific: I was seeking advice on what ATF would be suitable for my vehicle when changing the ATF more frequently than recommended by the manufacturer, and was curious if it'd be better to use the factory-specified fluid (at slightly higher cost) or an aftermarket fluid that was "suitable for" (but not actually approved by the manufacturer) this particular transmission.

I've learned much from BITOGs collective wisdom, and figured that I could get a good answer to my question on the suitability of different fluids. I did not post here seeking a debate about the frequency of my ATF changes or the addition of aftermarket transmission filters.
 
2 things:

i have read (don';t ask me where) that Dexron VI is not back specced for PSF applications

your dealer is a ripoff. I can get it for a little less than $8 australian per litre and that is about $7 a liter.
 
Originally Posted By: crinkles
your dealer is a ripoff. I can get it for a little less than $8 australian per litre and that is about $7 a liter.


Indeed. Both of the local dealers are rip-offs, and not just with ATF. They do the same thing with air filters, touch-up paint, and all the other little odds and ends one needs. The one thing they had at a reasonable price was a Haynes manual, and that was $17.95 (vs. $25 at the local AutoZone).

I'll have to see what the dealers near my fiancee are charging. Since I go up there frequently, it's probably worth inquiring. (That, and there's a lot more dealerships near her, so they have to compete on prices a bit more.)
 
Originally Posted By: heypete
... Unfortunately, Toyota T-IV ATF is relatively pricey, and costs about $9/quart at the local Toyota dealer. None of the local auto-parts stores have T-IV or Mobil 3309, which is evidently an identical replacement.

AutoZone has Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF that claims to be "suitable for" transmissions that require T-IV, as well as a huge list of other transmission fluid specs. It's also cheaper, at $7.69/quart locally. I'm a fan of Mobil products, so this looks promising, though the lack of T-IV-specific approval (as opposed to being "suitable for", as declared by Mobil) makes me a bit skeptical. Would Mobil 1 ATF be satisfactory in this case? .....

All things being equal, I'd probably go for the Toyota fluid just to be on the safe side. However, prices are different, and I need to figure out if the extra cost for "genuine" T-IV is worth it. If the Mobil 1 ATF is actually better (for whatever definition of "better" can be applied to ATF), then it'd be beneficial to get a better product at a lower price. ....


The Toyota T-IV is a highly friction modified ATF along the lines of the most current Mercon and Dexron specs. There is no "Toyota fluid", there is just other people's fluid with a Toyota label on it. The specification was developed by the Aisin-Warner folks who make or license the transmissions that use it. Ford and GM also use these transmissions.

ExxonMobil is in fact one of the OEMs and Mobil 3309 is that OEM fluid.

The Mobil 1 ATF, Red Line D4, and a number of other ATFs are suitable. Suitable means that they are within the viscosity range of the OEM fluid and have a compatible additive package.

All of the major additive manufacturers have developed a "universal" package for highly friction modified ATFs, and so increasingly the ATF folks are skipping the certification to OEM specs and simply listing all the fluids that their product can replace.

I personally have used the Mobil 1 and Red Line D4 and if there is any issue with either I have not found it. The only difference between the pre-change and post-change is very slightly better performance at extremely low temperatures, which is just what you would expect when you lower the cold weather viscosity by replacing an OEM fluid with a synthetic.

Since do-it-yourself transmission fluid changes leave a little of the original behind, I measure what I drain and put that exact amount back in fresh. I then check the dipstick after driving it to get warm.

Whether you need to change at 60,000 miles or not depends on whether you drive cars until the wheels fall off or trade every 4 or 5 years.

Since I typically run cars for 150,000 to 200,000 miles, I change the ATF at 50,000 and every 30,000 thereafter. Oil is cheap, gears are expensive.

In my last Toyota change I used Mobil 1.
 
Toyota T-IV fluid is NOTHING SPECIAL in any way. That is why you are having such a hard time finding T-IV specific fluid. These days it is covered by universal fluids. There is no need for a stand alone fluid!

T-IV has been around for a LONG time( early 90's +/- introduction date )and is medium quality at best( compared to modern fluids ). 60K is way too long to run it. 30K is a more realistic service life for it.

Any of the universal fluids that say T-IV are 100% safe to use and will be a better product than actual T-IV. Buy whatever one fits your price range.
 
Originally Posted By: heypete
Originally Posted By: unDummy
My old Camry required 7500mile oil change intervals and once all the sludge monsters showed up, they updated the interval to 5000miles. Trust an automaker that changes intervals or recants their earlier recommendations???


They've also increased the interval on new Camrys to 10,000 miles. What's your point?

Technology changes and problems are corrected.

Quote:
Preventive maintenance is your choice. Walking around with the owners manual thinking its some kind of religious book is foolish!


Perhaps, but it's also widely considered to be a good place to start when considering maintenance.

In this particular case, both the manual and dipstick say that no replacement is necessary under normal conditions (my driving is almost exclusively under the "normal" conditions they list). The Toyota Scheduled Maintenance Guide website only mentions "inspecting" the fluid under normal conditions, but only mentions changing it if used for towing or other severe conditions.

man you need to use some common sense and think for yourself

[deleted]

I would change this fluid and filter as often as its cost effective for you. This is still transmission fluid, its still a transmission that works like 90% of them on the road, I would personally be doing mine every 30,000 miles. My family runs a transmission shop, and I worked there for a few years, you would be suprised whats inside those pans at those mileage intervals and how dirty the fluid can get on T-IV cars.... i've seen them BLACK at 40k on numerous different types of Toyotas
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Originally Posted By: FusilliJerry82
Castrol Import Multi-Vehicle (meets T-IV) works wonderfully in my father's '03 Camry.


Yep,very good stuff!!
thumbsup2.gif
 
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