Redline Water Wetter and Royal Purple Purple Ice

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Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
But the purpose of the thermostat remains the same and that is to regulate the flow of coolant to the radiator.


You're getting there, but you left out the last part of the sentence.

Finish this one for me.

the purpose of the thermostat remains the same and that is to regulate the flow of coolant to the radiator, in response to ...

i.e., tell us what the thermostat is responding to to regulate the flow of coolant to the radiator.
 
Also:
The purpose of the thermostat remains the same and that is to regulate the flow of coolant to the radiator..

...for the purposes of....

Azsynthetic will just try to wiggle out of it again. It's clear to everyone but him that the purpose of the thermostat is to regulate coolant temperature and therefore engine temperature.

If the cooling system is maxed out (thermostat loses temperature regulating control) and if WW does what AZ thinks it does then the coolant temperature would actually be as high or higher with WW, not lower. But we're just going in circles again.
 
Just change out your antifreeze every 2 years and you do not need to use an aditive like WW. I have tried it in a few cars and was not impressed. Waste of money. When I am talking about every 2 years, I am thinking of the classic/muscle cars in my collection.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow


Finish this one for me.

the purpose of the thermostat remains the same and that is to regulate the flow of coolant to the radiator, in response to ...

i.e., tell us what the thermostat is responding to to regulate the flow of coolant to the radiator.


It responses to the changes of the coolant temperature to regulate the flow of coolant to the radiator or to other components of the engine. That is why it is a "thermally" actuated devices. It does not change the coolant temperature. Other shade tree "mechanicx" failed to understand this and also failed to answer my previous questions. Some even try to imitate John Cleese in trying to avoid the facts.

Why NO engine thermostat manufacturer claims that the thermostat control the engine temperature? Because it does not. Why can't you understand that? Now, if you think that the term thermostat is wrong for a thermally actuated device then I "might" agree with you.
 
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Originally Posted By: Boss302fan
Just change out your antifreeze every 2 years and you do not need to use an aditive like WW. I have tried it in a few cars and was not impressed. Waste of money. When I am talking about every 2 years, I am thinking of the classic/muscle cars in my collection.


You are the one that waste money with your bi-annual coolant change. You can get lifetime coolant and never change it again. Your impression of the Water Wetter is based on imprecise (looking at the analog gauges) and unscientific (temp gun on the outside of the engine) observations. Look at the link I have given previously for a better way to test the thermal transfer capability of Water Wetter and equivalence.
 
In the early day, the thermostat has two main purposes: to reduce engine warm up time and to provide heat to the cabin. Later on, its purpose includes: to "maintain" optimum running temperature (high engine efficiency) and for emission control (low engine efficiency). Since day one, the thermostat does all of this by regulating the flow of coolant and nothing else. Without a liquid cool system (coolant and radiator at the minimum), the engine thermostat has no purpose and therefore is useless.

From an engineering standpoint the goal is to thread the needle and not just hitting the barn. To say that the thermostat control the temperature is the same as saying the driver control the temperature since she turns the engine on and off and therefore can make it warmer or cooler. So, the question is how technical do you want to get?
 
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
You can get lifetime coolant and never change it again.


crazy2.gif
. That even trumps your other claim that the thermostat isn't intended for regulating coolant temperature.
 
Sorry, I just can't resist. The self-contradiction and twisting in the wind is just to much to bear without comment.

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
In the early day, the thermostat has two main purposes: to reduce engine warm up time and to provide heat to the cabin.


Oh, it was for more than that, right from day one. Its main purpose was to stabilize the engine operating temperature and remove the dependency on the surrounding air temperature and engine load that plagued air-cooled engines and engines without thermostats. Engineers realized early on that if they could design the whole engine to operate virtually all the time at an essentially constant temperature rather than varying by +=50 or 100 degrees depending on loading and ambient temperature, it would make their life far easier and make their product better. This allowed closing up piston-to-cylinder clearances, changing the alloys used, extending the life of the engine, reducing the complexity of fuel systems, and countless other things. That's one of the two fundamental reasons that liquid-cooled engines are utilized so much today: 1) liquid cooling allows higher power density- the engine package can be made small and have very, very high combustion chamber temperatures compared to an air-cooled engine because the heat can be quickly removed from the engine metal and rejected to the atomosphere by a remotely-located radiator, and 2) it can be made to run at a fixed, constant temperature by use of the thermostat, allowing a more optimized design. Air cooled engines can't come close- aircraft have all manner of cowl flaps and dampers on the oil coolers, but the engine metal temperature still varies more than a liquid cooled car engine does. It was quite the enabling little invention.

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Later on, its purpose includes: to "maintain" optimum running temperature


You keep recognizing that fact and then denying it! What your sentence above effectively says is: "the thermostat controls the engine temperature." "Maintain" equals "controls" in this context. That's what the rest of us have been saying for days. You can wrap yourself around a stupid axle by saying it "regulates coolant flow and nothing else" all you want, but why does it regulate coolant flow? To increase or decrease heat rejection with the ONE GOAL of holding the engine temperature as near constant as possible. Back to the core subject that started this thread- EVEN IF surfactants greatly improve the heat transfer out of the engine and into the coolant as well as out of the coolant and into the environment via the radiator... the thermostat will MAINTAIN the same coolant temperature either way. If heat flows into the coolant faster, the coolant will get hotter and the thermostat will open wider allowing it to go to the radiator and cool faster. If it cools faster in the radiator, then the t-stat will close a little to keep from over-cooling.

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
(high engine efficiency) and for emission control (low engine efficiency).


Which is it? High efficiency or low? It can't be both. You're really stuck on this whole "emission controls reduce efficiency" bullfeathers that's been patently false since the early 1980s. Tell me- what are O2 sensors for? Emission contorol- YES. Does your car run better if you disable them? NO, they increase efficiency by providing feedback to the ECM so it can fine-tune the A/F ratio to the optimum stoichiometric value, which means the engine uses less fuel than if it just gets as close as it can in the blind, the way carburetors do. Does your car get better or worse mileage without a thermostat- WORSE because the quench zones inside the combustion chamber grow by a few microns, meaning that more fuel is left unburned on every firing of every cylinder. What about EGR- that's a "really bad" one right? Wrong. EGR on many engine designs dating back to at least 1984 (because I know a 1984 example) is used as a detonation controller much the way water injection works- the presence of CO and CO2 from recirculated exhaust in the A/F mix slows the burn rate and raises the effective octane of the A/F mix, allowing more efficient combustion without detonation.

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Since day one, the thermostat does all of this by regulating the flow of coolant and nothing else. Without a liquid cool system (coolant and radiator at the minimum), the engine thermostat has no purpose and therefore is useless.


What is the purpose of a light switch? To turn the light on and off, or to interrupt or allow the flow of electrons through a wire? What's the purpose of an oil pressure regulator valve on your engine's oil pump? To maintain a constant pressure in the oiling system, or to divert part of the oil flow back to the sump rather than to the engine? The light switch exists to turn the light on and off, it just happens to do it by interrupting electrons. The pressure valve exists to maintain a constant pressure in the oiling system, which it does by diverting oil back to the sump. A thermostat exists to control the engine temperature, which it does by regulating water flow.

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
So, the question is how technical do you want to get?


You are not being technical. You are being pedantic, just as pedantic as saying a light switch doesn't turn the lights on and off. It just regulates the flow of electrons.
 
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Sorry, I just can't resist.


Hahahaha, what voice are you now? The Terminator? I can hear it now "I'll be baack!"


Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
So, the question is how technical do you want to get?


You are not being technical. You are being pedantic, just as pedantic as saying a light switch doesn't turn the lights on and off. It just regulates the flow of electrons.


That the problem with non-technical people like yourselves and other shade tree "mechanicx". You are trying to compare the function of the light switch or a toilet valve to that of an engine thermostat. The patent on the light switch does claim that it turn the lights on and off. The patent on the engine thermostat never claim that it control the engine temperature, only you do. See the difference?

Beside trying to prove that you are a ventriloquist do you have any authoritative written proof that an engine thermostat controls the engine temperature? I am looking for either an engine thermostat patent or an engine thermostat manufacturer technical paper and not another voice over.
 
Better turn up to work tomorrow and ask the boss to sack me for my lack of technical understanding...in an environment which has maybe the most technically complex control systems that are ever likely to be seen.

It responds to temperature to increase the flow of coolant to the radiator to reject excess heat.

It is therefore THE control element.

just like your Honeywell systems that responded to ambient temp to control the flow of refrigerant to the condenser and evaporator.

How about you ring one of the control blokes at Honeywell, and ask him what he thinks of your thermostat theory.
 
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
You can get lifetime coolant and never change it again.


That even trumps your other claim that the thermostat isn't intended for regulating coolant temperature.


Thank you very much and here are some of such coolants:

http://www.evanscooling.com/maintenance/

http://www.peakantifreeze.com/images/pk_global_lifetime_warranty.pdf


And you are calling other people around here "non-technical" and "shade-tree" while you rely on product promotional/marketing links as technical info? I got news for you, Dexcool has about the longest lasting inhibitors that coolant researchers have found. And even they don't call it a lifetime coolant.
 
Originally Posted By: adreed24
I have heard of these 2 products and I was wondering if they really help to keep engines cooler.

I have a 1990 Trans Am GTA, with the 5.7 liter engine and I was thinking about adding something to it, to help keep it cooler in the summer months.

Anyone have any opinions, good or bad, on the Water Wetter and Purple Ice?

Thanks in advance!
lubeguard makes a product, called "Kool it" They have a nice breakdown and chart, very very good product. For further info checkout www.lubeguard.com I have personally used their products. Redline makes nice products too, and yes I have used their products, including Royal Purple. But I think Lubeguard's Kool It coolant additive, is an excellent product. Their transmission additive products are very good as well. Good luck on your final selection.

Best Regards,
 
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Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Originally Posted By: Boss302fan
Just change out your antifreeze every 2 years and you do not need to use an aditive like WW. I have tried it in a few cars and was not impressed. Waste of money. When I am talking about every 2 years, I am thinking of the classic/muscle cars in my collection.


You are the one that waste money with your bi-annual coolant change. You can get lifetime coolant and never change it again. Your impression of the Water Wetter is based on imprecise (looking at the analog gauges) and unscientific (temp gun on the outside of the engine) observations. Look at the link I have given previously for a better way to test the thermal transfer capability of Water Wetter and equivalence.


It is not a waste of money to change the coolant every 2 years on a classic car, stupid if you do not do it. Maybe on a new car it is a waste, but you do not need WW in newer cars.

I would NEVER use lifetime coolant and not change it, that is how you ruin a car. What am I wasting, $20? WW is around $12 and I would rather use fresh coolant then waste my money on that product.
 
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic


That the problem with non-technical people like yourselves


Nice try. BSEE 1986, MSEE 1988, 25 years (so far) working as a research engineer. Non-technical? Hardly. I don't throw my background around, because the truth of the matter is that when it comes to cars some completely "non technical" people have immensely practical ideas and are very creative and have a wealth of practical knowledge. I would never dis anyone as "shade tree" just because they don't have an engineering degree or two.

Quote:
The patent on the light switch does claim that it turn the lights on and off. The patent on the engine thermostat never claim that it control the engine temperature, only you do. See the difference?


Patent on the light switch? Sheesh. There's no such thing- maybe a patent or two on a particular light swicth *mechanism,* but that's a different matter altogether. Besides, there's nothing technical about patents- that's the domain of lawyers and "non technical" people for the most part.

Quote:
Beside trying to prove that you are a ventriloquist do you have any authoritative written proof that an engine thermostat controls the engine temperature?


Think for yourself, don't just be a parrot. Of course you've actually said that it does control the engine temperature TWICE in this thread, but you keep contradicting yourself.
 
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
Better turn up to work tomorrow and ask the boss to sack me for my lack of technical understanding...in an environment which has maybe the most technically complex control systems that are ever likely to be seen.


I only question your understanding of the automobile engine thermostat. You are the one that veered off topic and are not able to show any proof that I have asked for.
 
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic

Thank you very much and here are some of such coolants:

http://www.evanscooling.com/maintenance/

http://www.peakantifreeze.com/images/pk_global_lifetime_warranty.pdf


And you are calling other people around here "non-technical" and "shade-tree" while you rely on product promotional/marketing links as technical info? I got news for you, Dexcool has about the longest lasting inhibitors that coolant researchers have found. And even they don't call it a lifetime coolant.


Dexcool is not a lifetime coolant and that is why they do not have a lifetime warranty like Peak Global coolant. Yup, shade tree mechanicx never read the lifetime warranty otherwise they be out of a job. Shade tree mechanicx are non-technical by definition.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Shade Tree Mechanic
 
Originally Posted By: Boss302fan

I would NEVER use lifetime coolant and not change it, that is how you ruin a car. What am I wasting, $20? WW is around $12 and I would rather use fresh coolant then waste my money on that product.


You are wasting $20 per year, year after year. Any proof on using a lifetime coolant such as Peak Global and ruining an engine? Have you read their warranty? Do you change oil every 3K miles or 6 months regardless?
 
Peak Global is a lifetime coolant just because their marketing says so? Explain how PGL can last longer than Dexcool? Global has sodium benzoate which is used in 2 year coolant and in G-05. So tell us since you are so technical what's the other magic ingredient that makes it last longer than Dexcool and its extended life HD coolant variants? And if it is so good then why are OEM manufactures using Dexcool and not Peak Global.

They should be using Peak Global and Water Wetter according to you, but none of them are. I guess manufacturers are too "shade tree" and "non-technical".
 
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum

Quote:
The patent on the light switch does claim that it turn the lights on and off. The patent on the engine thermostat never claim that it control the engine temperature, only you do. See the difference?


Patent on the light switch? Sheesh. There's no such thing- maybe a patent or two on a particular light swicth *mechanism,* but that's a different matter altogether. Besides, there's nothing technical about patents- that's the domain of lawyers and "non technical" people for the most part.



Hahahaha, you are indeed hilarious. First, you brought up the light switch to compare to the engine thermostat then now admit that it is a different matter altogether, just like I said.

Have you heard of a patent engineer?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_engineer

In Europe, you can not patent an invention unless it has a technical contribution. So, where is the patent on an engine thermostat that controls or sets the engine temperature like you have dreamed about?
 
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