Redline - 0W40 vs. 5W40 for BMW and more

[Craig in Canada]

I have a 1998 BMW 528 (M52B28 engine) with about 174,000km on it. It is driven year-round west of Toronto. The last couple of years it sees more short trips and fewer long trips due to lifestyle changes (kids). I drive it "as designed" - I don't abuse it based on its heritage but I do enjoy driving and it is stick so, on average, revs are higher. My wife drives fairly sedately.

Over it's life it has seen:

• 50,000km on Pennzoil 5W50 syn @ 5-6k km (6month) intervals
• 60,000km on M1 0W40 at 6k-8k km (6 month) intervals
• 60,000km on GC @ 8k-9k km and sometimes Esso XD3 15W40 HDEO (ie. ARX cleaning or "just cause" in summer weather) (6 month) intervals

I recently had the VC off for the first time and there's light varnish despite a short OCI and the use of quality synthetics. Yeah it's only cosmetic, but it shouldn't be there.

Link to pictures

Between M1 and GC I did a round of ARX a couple of years ago, mostly to quiet a noisy lifter. The ARX (old instructions) did 90% of the job. ARX in maint dose in GC hasn't improved it AT ALL over the last 2-3 years. I ran HDEO this past summer with maint dose (4oz) ARX and it immediately began to improve. I had a personal theory (JUST A THEORY) that ARX and GC don't play well together due to GC's ester content (since ARX and GC don't mix in a measuring cup - I started a thread on that years ago). I left the ARX out of my GC this fall and I think the lifter noise is continuing to improve. I'm also curious about the varnish occurring because of this factor.

Now to the Redline part. For some reason I'm thinking about giving Redline a try. Clearly the high ester formula should be good for cleaning, and I've read numerous accounts of RL being "smooth and quiet" yet "free revving" etc...

Being a BMW it needs ACEA A3 and it likes things a little thick. That being said, it also gets cold around here and I like GC's properties of cold protection. Looking at the PDS for Redline is looks like 0W40 is 81/15.1 cSt and 5W40 is 94/15.1 @40C/100C. GC is about 66/12.1 IIRC. I also noticed that they state 5W40 is recommended for BMW etc...

I am curious about other elements of the formula other than just viscosity which might weight into the decision. I'm not a Redline fanboy so I don't know every fact there is, nor do the PDS indicate it. Ordinarily the narrow visc gap would appeal to me in the summer as it would tend to be more "durable" and have less VII content. But I know things aren't always that simple.

1/ I've heard that one of the two formulas has no moly. While I'm not a moly freak this would be a large divergence from RL's norm.

2/ I've heard that there are some select weights of RL with a different formula basis, possibly making them superior than some of the others (it could have been 0W30?)

3/ If the basis differs significantly, and I switch to RL, I probably shouldn't flip between 5W40 in summer and 0W40 in winter since the ad-packs could be very different.


I appreciate any insights into the RL product line differences before my spring OC.

 

[demarpaint]

I'm biased toward 0W-xx oils in leak free engines so I'd go with the RL 0W-40, year round. That engine looks pretty good, if the varnish bothers you add a pint of MMO to the oil for the last 1000 miles of the next couple of OCI's it should clean it up. JMO

 

[mechtech2]

At those miles, a little varnish discoloration on a BMW is not unusual [and not harmful].

If you have lifter tick problems because of any build up, and cleaning the engine internally helps, your deposit problems are more severe than at first glance.

This is not a loose part, therefore it is a sticking part.

Either oil mentioned is superb.

Are you running too hot? Bad PCV ventilation? Too long on an oil change?

 

[demarpaint]

I borrowed this from another thread, it might be of some valve to you.

Originally Posted By: BobFout

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I'm biased toward 0W-xx oils in leak free engines so I'd go with the RL 0W-40, year round. That engine looks pretty good, if the varnish bothers you add a pint of MMO to the oil for the last 1000 miles of the next couple of OCI's it should clean it up. JMO


I might be tempted to try some MMO (maybe a pint, maybe not) except it cannot be purchased in Canada any longer because it doesn't meet some government approval of some sort.

I do have a bottle of Swepco 502 which was given to me by someone that every now and then I think about trying.

The engine is leak free (no detectable consumption in 8000km/6month OCIs) and the car is very well maintained.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
At those miles, a little varnish discoloration on a BMW is not unusual [and not harmful].

If you have lifter tick problems because of any build up, and cleaning the engine internally helps, your deposit problems are more severe than at first glance.


I have one ticking lifter. It ticks sometimes, and lightly. I can hear it, and it bothers me, but I'm not mistaken for a diesel for instance.

I was running M1 when I first got tired of it. As soon as I put anything other than M1 in the rest of the engine got so much quieter that the tick REALLY stood out. ARX + HDEO nearly eliminated it but not quite. I don't want to argue the M1 noise issue, but it was VERY apparent on my M52.

Quote:

This is not a loose part, therefore it is a sticking part.

Either oil mentioned is superb.

Are you running too hot? Bad PCV ventilation? Too long on an oil change?


Running within normal temps (I activate a diag mode on my instrument cluster to get a digital block temp readout), never overheated, all UOAs come back great with TBN>4 (at least). They're in the UOA forum somewhere, I'll link to them when I have time. The CCV system is original and I've been considering changing it as preventive maintenance. It's more complicated than a "typical" PCV system so it's a couple of hundred dollars of just parts to DIY and it's all buried under the IM. All of the "tests" for function are good and there's no oil consumption so I have no reason to believe it is failed (yet).

 

[DieselTech]

I see absolutley no problem with those pics. The alum will always discolor....this is not sludge and is not harming anything what so ever. Your hard pressed to find an alum engine without discoloring. The pours in the metal just retain it.

for what its worth redline is a great product but it will not make your varnish dissapear

 

[Jim 5]

I'd ARX it again with some XD-3 15w-40 over the summer if you want to keep at it. If you want to get more aggressive, you might touch base with Pablo or check out his site for an amsoil flush that he recommends.

Otherwise, I'm pretty impressed with how clean things look under there.

Another oil that's good and reasonably priced in canada is the Petro Canada E Duron 0w-40.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Craig in Canada
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I'm biased toward 0W-xx oils in leak free engines so I'd go with the RL 0W-40, year round. That engine looks pretty good, if the varnish bothers you add a pint of MMO to the oil for the last 1000 miles of the next couple of OCI's it should clean it up. JMO


I might be tempted to try some MMO (maybe a pint, maybe not) except it cannot be purchased in Canada any longer because it doesn't meet some government approval of some sort.

I do have a bottle of Swepco 502 which was given to me by someone that every now and then I think about trying.

The engine is leak free (no detectable consumption in 8000km/6month OCIs) and the car is very well maintained.


Sucks our friends in Canada can't get MMO. Maybe if you enter the US you can grab some. In a well maintained leak free engine, I'd run the 0W40 oil, the specs I posted above show RL to be quite good.

 

[DieselTech]

I wouldn't mess with anymore additive. its not going to get any better then it is now.

 

[Touring5]

Those pictures actually look pretty good.

When I bought my '99 528iT it had about 80K miles and the previous owner had done dealer OCI (BMW 5w30) at the recommended intervals (i.e. extended). In the first 12K miles I owned the car I ran M1 0w40, and did one ARX clean/rinse cycle with RTS. A couple of years later I had to replace the valve cover gasket and saw a moderate amount of varnish (more than yours appears to have). After that I used Lube Control for about a year and half with GC. Then last year I had the valve cover gasket off again when I did a cooling system overhaul and vanos seal replacement. The varnish had improved by maybe 25%.

I would suggest just select the oil you think will serve you best and feel no need to add anything to the oil. That's the approach I've decided upon.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: DieselTech
I wouldn't mess with anymore additive. its not going to get any better then it is now.


I'm not looking to additive the engine to death, but it would be nice to clean that lifter 100% once and for all. I'm not opposed to ARX maint doses (4oz in 7L sump) except for my theory about GC compatibility. Obviously I wouldn't put ARX in RL either.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: Touring5
Those pictures actually look pretty good.

When I bought my '99 528iT it had about 80K miles and the previous owner had done dealer OCI (BMW 5w30) at the recommended intervals (i.e. extended). In the first 12K miles I owned the car I ran M1 0w40, and did one ARX clean/rinse cycle with RTS. A couple of years later I had to replace the valve cover gasket and saw a moderate amount of varnish (more than yours appears to have). After that I used Lube Control for about a year and half with GC. Then last year I had the valve cover gasket off again when I did a cooling system overhaul and vanos seal replacement. The varnish had improved by maybe 25%.

I would suggest just select the oil you think will serve you best and feel no need to add anything to the oil. That's the approach I've decided upon.


My dad has had two E39 540s (a 99 and an 02) and used to use the dealer 5W30 at half of the OLM interval. Even at this there was lots of staining, orange build up, clattering and ticking. Switching to GC stopped a lot of this very quickly, and an ARX round (sticking w/ GC afterwards) pretty much has everything cleaned and quiet.

I've seen pictures from other E39 owners with 170,000 MILES (not km) who run various oils including dino 20W50 showing NO varnish (clean silver metal everywhere). Considering my habits, I figure I shouldn't be getting build up.

In case I was unclear, I'm entertaining a switch to Redline for a variety of reasons, not exclusively cleaning. Two serious issues are cost and availability.

All syn oil with the right properties here in Canada is ~$9/L if you don't catch it on sale. The deepest sale on GC is 25% off. It looks like Redline is $13-$14/L but I haven't priced it in gallon jugs. It's also hard to get. Cost alone may keep me from bothering with RL when GC is already quite good but I'm still curious to try it at least once.

I can get a gallon of XD3 15W40 for $16 or something, which is one reason I just ran that last summer - a fraction of the cost of GC and still a great oil. I've also thought about running RTS 5W40.

 

[addyguy]

If that were my car, I'd run Rotella 'T6' 5W-40, OR the mentioned Duron 'E' 0W-40 in it. Very inexpensive oils that will protect well.

I'd say that engine is very clean. I wouldn't be doing more flushes on it.

 

[whitesands]

That engine looks pretty clean to me...If you want to prevent excess varnish/sludge Redline's certainly an oil that can help prevent it...Looks like you're doing good with that engine.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: addyguy
If that were my car, I'd run Rotella 'T6' 5W-40, OR the mentioned Duron 'E' 0W-40 in it. Very inexpensive oils that will protect well.

I'd say that engine is very clean. I wouldn't be doing more flushes on it.


T6 5W40 is on my list that I'm also thinking about. Of course I'm not sure that T6 buys me anything over GC, although it may be less expensive. T6 cold visc lies between the two RL grades and hot visc is considerably lower at 87/14.2. I also don't know if I can get T6 in Canada blah blah blah but I know I've seen RTS 5W40 on the shelf and the formula might be identical.

It has never had a "flush" per se, only one round of ARX on the "old" short interval instructions followed by ARX maintenance doses (3-4oz) since that time. The old instructions only put one bottle in the 7qt sump and ran it a lot shorter than the newer instructions (never mind the "sprintman" instructions ). I've wondered sometimes if following the newer, more aggressive application would have finished the lifter in the first place years ago.

If I were to do another round of ARX, I try to maximize the benefit. I'd probably use XD3 15W40 HDEO for clean and rinse, and start as early in the spring as I dared to run 15W40 (for my comfort) to try to squeeze the required distances in before the cold is back. I'm not a high mileage driver. (I know ARX isn't overly effective against varnish)

 

[JAG]

Redline 5W-40: no moly so that the sulfur content and sulfated ash test value are suitable for API CJ-4 applications.

Redline 0W-40: contains moly and oil has higher sulfur and sulfated ash. As you know, it has obvious viscometric and volatility differences compared to the 5W-40. Generally costs more than 5W-40 because of it being a 0W-X oil.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: JAG
Redline 5W-40: no moly so that the sulfur content and sulfated ash test value are suitable for API CJ-4 applications.

Redline 0W-40: contains moly and oil has higher sulfur and sulfated ash. As you know, it has obvious viscometric and volatility differences compared to the 5W-40. Generally costs more than 5W-40 because of it being a 0W-X oil.


Ah, this was the kind of thing I was hoping to discover by starting this thread.

So does this mean that, viscosity aside, I want the 0W40 formula presuming I don't require CJ-4 and oil isn't going through the cats in any quantity? As I pointed out earlier, I specifically noticed that the 5W40 formula carries the "recommended for BMW, Audi..." continuing with more euro brands than the 0W40 carries.

This thread, although a little dated, confuses me on Euro designs vs. ash allowances/requirements. Different posters seem to flip-flop on whether European specs are high ash or low ash as the thread progresses. Diesel seems to come and go in the thread too - I'm not concerned about diesel applications.

If I remember correctly, one of the major changes from BMW LL-01 to LL-04 is low SAPS - so low ash, sulphur etc... On the other hand I've also read that LL-04 isn't intended for the North American market and thought I read a paper on LL-04 performing poorly here. Why? Fuel? The engines are the same on both sides of the pond in almost all cases. Unfortunately I don't have any references handy.

If low ash/sulphur -> low SAPS -> LL-04 -> reported poor performance in NA, that's probably a direction I don't want to take, right?

 

[JAG]

Quote:
So does this mean that, viscosity aside, I want the 0W40 formula presuming I don't require CJ-4 and oil isn't going through the cats in any quantity? As I pointed out earlier, I specifically noticed that the 5W40 formula carries the "recommended for BMW, Audi..." continuing with more euro brands than the 0W40 carries.

I'll first point out that API CJ-4 oils usually have ash content of 1% which is what many API SM oils have, while mid and low SAPS oils for BMW (LL-04), VW (504), MB (229.51) have considerably lower sulfated ash levels. So Redline 5W-40 wouldn't meet chemical requirements of the latter.
Only trying both oils can determine which one suits you best. The moly is potentially good and bad. Good: anti-wear, friction reduction, antioxidant. Bad: increases ash content of burnt oil which builds up on rings and piston grooves. But it gets complicated since if you really stress the oil, the antioxidant effect may reduce oil degradation deposits on the rings and pistons. Also complicating is that due to design reasons and low oil consumption your rings and pistons might not have a ash buildup issue with either oil.

That thread you linked doesn't really help us, IMO. But it was interesting.

MB determined that their 229.51 oils did not consistently perform as desired in the U.S. or North America (I can't recall which) due to the ethanolized fuel. IIRC, long oil change intervals lowering TBN and having increased water content in oil while using lower TBN oils caused corrosion. This is documented somewhere in a BITOG thread. But this is a matter of TBN so it plays no role in the Redline 0W-40 and 5W-40 decision.

How long are your trips generally? How much oil consumption does your engine have? Shorter trips and lower oil consumption will favor the 0W-40 in my opinion.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: JAG


How long are your trips generally? How much oil consumption does your engine have? Shorter trips and lower oil consumption will favor the 0W-40 in my opinion.


Trips are, unfortunately, short in general although always long enough that the coolant is up to temp due to certain measures (I've posted before about how I lower HVAC fan speed considerably when short tripping in the winter). Between these measures and longer (2h+ interstate-class highway) trips no less than once per month (more often in summer) I haven't been getting a lot of emulsion buildup on the oil cap in winter.

Oil consumption is undetectable - no change on the dipstick in up to 9000km intervals.

Fuel dilution is measured by Blackstone as never higher than 0.5% in my worst post-winter UOA. It's "TR" or 0 in post-summer UOAs. (although I understand that Blackstone may not have the best fuel dilution test consistency)