Balancing...

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AGLT

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Buckhorn, Ontario, Canada
On my new E-350 XLT SuperDuty, the tires had a red dot on the sidewall near the bead. After I removed the wheel covers, I noticed on all four wheels the red dots on the tires were lined up with a light green square sticker near the edge of the rim.

When I asked, the answer was the tires and rims are marked for either the heaviest or lightest side of the rim & tire, then aligned when mounted, to keep the amount of additional balancing weights to a minimum and a better balance job should be easier on larger diameter heavy wheels.

Questions:

1) The person who answered didn't know if these markers identified the lightest or heaviest side of rim/tire. Which is it?

2) I can put a permanent mark where the sticker on the rim is, but future tires bought in the aftermarket have no red dot to line up with. Are there tire brands that do mark the heaviest or lightest side of the tire that you know of?

3) I don't expect anyone to have an answer for this one, but why doesn't the aftermarket industry pre-mark their tires & rims in this fashion? Sure, costs must be kept low but if the new cars & trucks can be done in this way, why isn't it already a permanent standard for the aftermarket?
 
When I used to mount tires as a kid, we would align the dot with the valve stem. Most of today's tire mounters dont' know about this and won't do it via a personal request.
I was able to get a walmart tire guy to listen to me when he tried to add 4oz of weight to my tire. I had him flip the tire around and he rebalanced it with 1.5oz. He was stunned.
 
Yeah they just don't permanently make the rims any more and the valve stem location means nothing so while the tire manufacturers may mark their tires what are you gonna align that too?

Install, balance on a Hunter GSP9700 with road force check. Anything over 18 (lbs or thousandths of an inch) on car or 25 on a light truck should be checked for possible better matching or either the rim or tire should be replaced.
 
Originally Posted By: AGLT
.......

Questions:

1) The person who answered didn't know if these markers identified the lightest or heaviest side of rim/tire. Which is it?



Just so we are clear, those marks have nothing to do with balance and everything to do with uniformity (think of it as "roundness" and you'll not be far off the mark.)

The mark on the tire is the high point of the Radial 1st Harmonic (R1H) and the mark on the rim is the low point of the R1H of the rim. Match those up and the assembly is more "round".

Quote:
........

2) I can put a permanent mark where the sticker on the rim is, but future tires bought in the aftermarket have no red dot to line up with. Are there tire brands that do mark the heaviest or lightest side of the tire that you know of?



Yes, but there isn't an industry standard (as has been pointed out) and other marks may or may not be there or even be the R1H location.

Quote:
......

3) I don't expect anyone to have an answer for this one, but why doesn't the aftermarket industry pre-mark their tires & rims in this fashion? Sure, costs must be kept low but if the new cars & trucks can be done in this way, why isn't it already a permanent standard for the aftermarket?


There are a couple of reasons.

First, there is a priciple in QA that if you have a process "under control" - meaning it is not only stable and consistent, but also the products produced are normally within the small range of values - then you do not have to measure every product - that it is adequate to sample the population to ensure the process is still under control.

And if you don't measure every product, you can't mark it.

Second, the rims are not consistently marked either - making the whole process somewhat a waste of time.

BTW, the machines that measure this kind of thing are pretty expensive. Last time I checked - about 10 years ago - a new one was about $600K.
 
My valve stem holes on my rims are in a fixed spot relative to the lug holes. The hubcap needs this. Sure they could have it to the nearest 45 degrees (4 lug design) but I bet they don't even bother with that.
 
Thanks for your replies!

I noticed the little green square stickers had no consistent placement relative to the valve stem location.

This leads me to believe they are 'marked' based on actually being balance tested... What I mean is they must be test balanced (or other test) in order to determine where that sticker is to be placed. Surely they couldn't be placing the stickers in random locations, otherwise the red dot on the tire would be worthless.

Obviously no two rims are identical so valve stem location might not be an indicator of a light or heavy 'side' of the rim.

You'd think with all the advanced automotive knowledge and tecnologies at manufacturer's disposal, it would be standard practice for all tire & rims to be manufactured fully using the knowledge from all these years of experience.

But NO... It seems doing nothing as good as knowledge allows is the defacto-standard of modern times.


Ultimatley this says alot about us, about human nature. Tragic really.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Originally Posted By: AGLT
.......

Questions:

1) The person who answered didn't know if these markers identified the lightest or heaviest side of rim/tire. Which is it?



Just so we are clear, those marks have nothing to do with balance and everything to do with uniformity (think of it as "roundness" and you'll not be far off the mark.)

The mark on the tire is the high point of the Radial 1st Harmonic (R1H) and the mark on the rim is the low point of the R1H of the rim. Match those up and the assembly is more "round".

Quote:
........

2) I can put a permanent mark where the sticker on the rim is, but future tires bought in the aftermarket have no red dot to line up with. Are there tire brands that do mark the heaviest or lightest side of the tire that you know of?



Yes, but there isn't an industry standard (as has been pointed out) and other marks may or may not be there or even be the R1H location.

Quote:
......

3) I don't expect anyone to have an answer for this one, but why doesn't the aftermarket industry pre-mark their tires & rims in this fashion? Sure, costs must be kept low but if the new cars & trucks can be done in this way, why isn't it already a permanent standard for the aftermarket?


There are a couple of reasons.

First, there is a priciple in QA that if you have a process "under control" - meaning it is not only stable and consistent, but also the products produced are normally within the small range of values - then you do not have to measure every product - that it is adequate to sample the population to ensure the process is still under control.

And if you don't measure every product, you can't mark it.

Second, the rims are not consistently marked either - making the whole process somewhat a waste of time.

BTW, the machines that measure this kind of thing are pretty expensive. Last time I checked - about 10 years ago - a new one was about $600K.




Interesting stuff! Very informative, brings more items into the picture I have not considered (roundness).

Well, manufacturers do have some financial resources to play with... So I suppose they do have their reasons, whether balance or roundness or others unknown to me, to spend the money on such equipment. They wouldn't be doing it if it was a total waste of time so I can only assume it is worth it or such expensive machines wouldn't even exist.

Back to square one I guess... That the aftermarket rims & tires are not going to have added value advantages to the OEM auto manufacturere's wheels.

But I do understand more of the issues better thanks to all your posts... Thanks everyone!
 
Originally Posted By: benjamming
If that machine costs over half a million, how are tires marked by local shops? I assume their markings are guesstimates.


You might be thinking about the Hunter GSP9700 - and while it does have the capability of measuring a mounted assembly, it is the assembly it is measuring and not the tire by itself. There a long involved discussion on what the machine does, how well it does it, etc., but the short version is that the tire has to be mounted and then there are some gyrations to separate the contribution from the tire and the contribution of the rim - and this is done one by one. Since it takes about 5 minutes to mount a tire and measure it, it isn't very efficient. But it has the advantage of being inexpensive.

The half a million machines are production machines. They are fast, accurate, and repeatable.
 
Originally Posted By: Onmo'Eegusee
Good page with a lot of info: http://www.barrystiretech.com/unifandbal.html

Basically, there is no standard. Some OEs want it marked one way and others want it marked the other. I have seen them marked aftermarket, but no standard there, either.


I just read the article at your link, very informative. Opens my eyes to an entirely new perspective, beyond the balancing issue alone! Thank you for posting the link... I think everyone needs to read it! Including people working at the tire retailers! Essential info!
 
Originally Posted By: AGLT

I just read the article at your link, very informative. Opens my eyes to an entirely new perspective, beyond the balancing issue alone! Thank you for posting the link... I think everyone needs to read it! Including people working at the tire retailers! Essential info!

All the article on this page have actually been written by our own CapriRacer here, if I'm not mistaken.

http://www.barrystiretech.com/index.html

We are honored to have such a knowledgeable member here on BITOG.
 
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