06 Corolla Sludge :: MMO Experiment

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Originally Posted By: Catera
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Everyone NEEDS to THINK that for every member who may read this there are MANY who come here to find out facts. They come here and read that Fram is junk (even though MILLIONS and MILLIONS of engines go down the road just fine year after year) Conventional oil is sub par and if you really "care" for your engine the only thing that will do is brand M of oil...


The way I see fram is perfectly fine filter if you go no more then 3K miles, you get what you pay for.
Same with conventional oil.

If you care for your car like me, and you squeeze every penny out of your oil then you will think otherwise... Fram at 7500-10,000 is not enouhg in my book... however some of the other filters that have been proven to be better work exactly for that reason.

Another way to look at it, if I drive a beater, then conventional oil and fram is all I am gonna put in it... if I drive a nicer car that I care and love, then Mobil 1 and Wix is my choice.





I wouldn't have a problem using a fram in one of my nicer cars....nothing wrong with the filters. I've used them before with no issues at all. I usually find better deals though....like the delco cartridges for my ecotec.....
 
I actually used to service my vehicle at Jiffy Lube back in the day when I was strapped on time. I always have used AcDelco and Supertechs in my Sierra (ACD more than anything else.) I remember I took it to a Jiffy lube down the street from me. Got my oil change and stuff. Got home (i always check the torque of the filter.) and I still saw my AcDelco filter sitting there.

Believe me, they will skimp on the filter. I returned and had them refund my money and did the change my self. I wasted more time by taking my truck to them than doing the change my self in the first place.

I only take my car to the local GM dealer and my Toyota to the Toyota dealer if I do not have the time to deal with services. I get coupons in the mail that brings the price down within 5-10 bucks of what Jiffy lube would charge.

I think that Jiffy lube could have ordered a batch of fram filters for the corolla since it is a very popular car. They may have run out of that particular model filter and have ordered a case from a Kragens or Autozone.

From what I have read in this thread IMO there are a number of possible problems.

Either:

A: JL ran out and used a fram, failed to change filter. (probably would have gotten a store brand that was cheaper instead.)
B: Friend did (not catera) oil change with a fram and JL did not change the filter on last change.
C: Shes lying, but if she had the sticker on her windshield then she wasnt lying. but somewhere along those lines someone failed to change the filter. (and possibly the oil.)
 
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"even though MILLIONS and MILLIONS of engines go down the road just fine year after year" isn't the same as saying FRAM will not cause anybody any problems compared to purchasing a competing product. Your defenses of FRAM are just as anecdotal as any posts by people bashing them or expressing negative views on them. If you're going to criticize others for not using solid facts for bashing FRAM then why can't you come up with any solid facts refuting these claims one by one? We might as well be arguing religion here.
 
Originally Posted By: sangyup81
"even though MILLIONS and MILLIONS of engines go down the road just fine year after year" isn't the same as saying FRAM will not cause anybody any problems compared to purchasing a competing product. Your defenses of FRAM are just as anecdotal as any posts by people bashing them or expressing negative views on them. If you're going to criticize others for not using solid facts for bashing FRAM then why can't you come up with any solid facts refuting these claims one by one? We might as well be arguing religion here.


No. Because the statement is true.

Let's look at statements made about Fram;

"poor construction and filtering ability saved the engine from oil starvation, or from recirculation sludge through the bypass valve. Maybe Fram is perfect for people who never change their oil."

"fram is perfectly fine filter if you go no more then 3K miles"

And other places on this board;

"Fram orange-can filters are rock-bottom, cheap, barely acceptable products. There is not a worse oil filter on the market"

"I can't and won't recommend, or use a Fram Orange can of Death"

"It's just a FRAM-O-Death,what you expect."

And I can go on and on.

A person comes to this board to find out HOW a Fram works (they are using them on their engine for years) and reads all the above comments and starts to worry.

Are Frams the best filter? Define "best".. They work and since they are the #1 filter you are going to see more of them have issues. Some of the "issues" that people are having with them has nothing to do with how they WORK.

I personally don't use them anymore (I have family members who do) because of the cost. But the fact is they do work and the above comments are not factual.

I've cut open filters for more years than some of you have been around this earth. I've had only 1 filter that had a problem in operating and the cut open filter showed a issue.

The brand? WIX. I guess all WIX filters are junk then. Same mindset that some members here use.

I've posted the WIX issue but you will not see me call them junk each and every time someone posts a thread on WIX filters. Some members here do that with Frams.

Bill
 
Actually, outside of this forum, I have heard Fram discussed as a premium filter in my social circles of automotive inclined people.

At least two to three of my mechanic friends only use Fram filters on everything. They all scolded me for using a Supertech walmart filter. These are the same guys who use 10w30 in literally everything, even new cars since the 5w30 is too "thin". These guys have millions of miles and years of experience.

I have another friend who has used nothing but supertech oil and supertech filters on his car ever since walmart ARRIVED in his town (about 15 years ago). He has had zero problems, and has a very clean engine.

Another friend gets his oil changed at 3000 miles like a watch, only by shops who put a coupon in the paper on sunday. He has no problems at all.

My point is that with today's cars, and today's oil, ANYTHING is fine for 99 percent of applications on the road today. You have to be doing something really stupid to have a problem with motor oil or filters.

Having a sludged up corolla like that is just the fault of the owner choosing to not do anything to the car. That oil probably has 15k-20k on it. That car would have been equally well served at a Walmart Tire Lube Express, as it would a Jiffy Lube, as it would the dealer. It wouldn't have mattered what brand of oil or filter they used on it, so long as it was changed at mileage even close to what the book says.

In my life, I have only had one continuous problem with a filter. It was in a 4.6L v8 ford thunderbird, and a 4.6L v8 f150. If I used ANY kind of filter besides the Motorcraft, I would get a dry-knock startup every morning. Even though the sound drove me crazy, I bet that there are f150's with a million miles going down the road that dry knock every morning, and the owners are oblivious to it.
 
Originally Posted By: sangyup81
We like that Jiffy Lube uses SOPUS products.

I'd like to know a little more about how that company is run. Does upper management push store managers to make more profit while turning a blind eye to ethical practices? I've seen it in the cell phone store world so I wouldn't be surprised to see it done in the quickie lube world.


Well, I will tell you. 98% of the Jiffy Lubes (and we all need to be careful how we use that name, as some just call all lube centers a Jiffy Lube) are franchised owed by individuals or a group of individuals. Shell provides the signage, promo materials, etc., and gets a royalty fee from the franchise. The contract is so stupidly worded, that the owner does not even have to use any SOPUS made products. I know of Jiffy Lubes that use Mobil, Service Pro, some no-name private blended oils etc. So, just because you see a Jiffy Lube (one with the big red J) don't assume it has either Pennzoil or Quaker State products in it.

Now, how did all of this happen. Back in 1985 there was a large group of investors that started the Jiffy Lube Oil Change Business. They got very large, very quick and their only oil supplier at the time was the Pennzoil Products Company. Well, it bit Pennzoil in the butt. They got so far in debt to Pennzoil, the only way Pennzoil could get out of it without loosing millions was to buy them out. And that is how Shell wound up with Jiffy Lube, when they bought the Pennzoil-Quaker State Company.

Another part of the STUPID contract, Shell cannot tell the owner how to run their operation. There are still a few company owned stores throughout the USA and they are FIRST CLASS operations, but they are selling them off as fast as they can. More money to be made in royalities.
 
Im not going to go out bashing all Jiffy Lubes but there have been some very scary stories told and some pretty bad reports on what they have done to vehicles....

My one personal experience with it was when I was younger my old brother got a job at one and quit after a couple weeks because the manager personally told him that if he thought that he could get away with it, such as if the customer was elderly or didnt know much about cars, to try and sell them an engine flush (without actually doing it) and not always change the filter...but that could have just been one, I have a friendd in college that used a jiffy lube and the vehicle she drives currently has 170k on it..so they must be doing something right on that one.

this is scary though...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiCAJ8ULnaI
 
I definitely do not want to bash any honest Jiffy Lubes out there, but it maybe a good idea to mark youre oil filter before and take the time to double check the work. 5 out of 9 Jiffy lubes was way Higher than I thought but you have to remember it is districtly run...so get in a good district and you should be fine but its no wonder why some are scared. Kind of like the Fram thing, I will never show my dad this site because of the Fram bashers...and he currently has 180k on his Ford Taurus, all frams and valvoline oil.
 
Originally Posted By: JustinH

My point is that with today's cars, and today's oil, ANYTHING is fine for 99 percent of applications on the road today. You have to be doing something really stupid to have a problem with motor oil or filters.


Excellent point and well said, Justin.

Originally Posted By: JustinH

Having a sludged up corolla like that is just the fault of the owner choosing to not do anything to the car. That oil probably has 15k-20k on it. That car would have been equally well served at a Walmart Tire Lube Express, as it would a Jiffy Lube, as it would the dealer. It wouldn't have mattered what brand of oil or filter they used on it, so long as it was changed at mileage even close to what the book says.



01.gif
 
Originally Posted By: ronrackley
I'd be careful with that MMO in there. From your description of the degree of the sludge problem, I'd change it and the filter again with MMO in a week or two - or at no more than 500 miles while listening closely to the engine to make sure no knocks develop. If new sounds develop, I'd change it immediately. My concern would be clogging up the filter with the products of dissolved sludge and letting junk bypass it to cause restrictions in the oil passages and/or valve lifters of the engine.

I've used MMO and recommended it be used to resolve sludge problems such as cause lifter noise many times over the past 40 years and I believe in it. It may not help much with sludge in the filler tube, where it does not circulate, but it will be cleaning where oil does circulate. From what you say, I'd check the PVC system for a bad PCV valve or blockages in hoses/tubes.


Good suggestions. The internals of that engine are probably a real mess. I would run that MMO for about 500-750 miles max, and dump the oil and filter. If not at least drop the filter and top it off. Then I would run a qt of MMO for about 1500-2000 miles and do another OC. It might take 2-3 runs with the MMO to clean that mess up, but my bet is it will do it.

I would be interested in seeing if it cleans the fill tube, I have my doubts about that.
 
Originally Posted By: Johnny
Originally Posted By: sangyup81
We like that Jiffy Lube uses SOPUS products.

I'd like to know a little more about how that company is run. Does upper management push store managers to make more profit while turning a blind eye to ethical practices? I've seen it in the cell phone store world so I wouldn't be surprised to see it done in the quickie lube world.


Well, I will tell you. 98% of the Jiffy Lubes (and we all need to be careful how we use that name, as some just call all lube centers a Jiffy Lube) are franchised owed by individuals or a group of individuals. Shell provides the signage, promo materials, etc., and gets a royalty fee from the franchise. The contract is so stupidly worded, that the owner does not even have to use any SOPUS made products. I know of Jiffy Lubes that use Mobil, Service Pro, some no-name private blended oils etc. So, just because you see a Jiffy Lube (one with the big red J) don't assume it has either Pennzoil or Quaker State products in it.

Now, how did all of this happen. Back in 1985 there was a large group of investors that started the Jiffy Lube Oil Change Business. They got very large, very quick and their only oil supplier at the time was the Pennzoil Products Company. Well, it bit Pennzoil in the butt. They got so far in debt to Pennzoil, the only way Pennzoil could get out of it without loosing millions was to buy them out. And that is how Shell wound up with Jiffy Lube, when they bought the Pennzoil-Quaker State Company.

Another part of the STUPID contract, Shell cannot tell the owner how to run their operation. There are still a few company owned stores throughout the USA and they are FIRST CLASS operations, but they are selling them off as fast as they can. More money to be made in royalities.


Precisely. Most of the Jiffy lubes are independent operations, and as such do pretty much what they want. I'll only speak for my local operation (that I try to avoid unless there is no other option) who tries to treat their customers like easy marks (and are probably successful at it a large percentage of the time.) They use pretty much what ever is the cheapest product (especially in dino oils.) This franchise has signs all over saying "We proudly use Pennzoil products." However went in a couple of years ago and had the oil changed, got the bill and it said that the oil used was Conoco. (Who would have ever thought of Conoco oil in the state of Ohio.) I have no issues with Conoco oil nor do I necessarily have issues using it, but it ain't Pennzoil. When I complained to corporate, they gave me the usual Conoco is a fine product , blah-z-blah. They then said the only Pennzoil product they use is the synthetic. When I then asked them where the signage was that said that they proudly use Conoco products, they had no answer except to offer me a free oil change.
This same operation once did a $39.95 radiator flush for me. The manager worked on the car personally and ran out of AF. So he sent his laughing boy down to wal-mart to pick up AF. We were talking and he said to me "We go down to wal-mart all the time to get what we run out of. So is it possible that a Fram filter got put on a car from Jiffy Lube ? Yes. And the AF that LB came back with was store brand. Therefore, there is no guarantee that just because Shell has an ownership stake that SOPUS products will be used. The only guarantee is that CHEAP products will be used.
 
I don't care about Jify Lubes, Fram filters, who did/didn't do what or any of that jazz........I just want to hear how the experiment goes. Everything else is secondary and frankly inconsequential IMO as we can't know all the details or change any of what happened at this point. We have a pretty good little Toyota engine that is sludged up & poorly maintained, I am totally interested to see if it can be brought back to the standards of somewhat maintained and how long it takes. If MMO or any other magic can do it so be it. It will give us knowledge for future reference, isn't that really the point?

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Seriously who cares too much about the jiffy lube angle? They are franchised and I'm sure all kinds of products get used if they run out of a certain supply. I used to take my truck to a 15 min oil place (not a jiffy lube) in Flushing Queens, they never sold me anything but oil, oil filter and an air filter (they would show me it first and ask). They had cars lined up out to the road and around the corner on saturdays so they probably did not need to worry about meeting a quota.

I for one would like to see the OP take off those valve covers and take some pics of the gore though I don't blame him if he does not. mmm... Sludge porn...
 
Originally Posted By: Smokescreen
I don't care about Jify Lubes, Fram filters, who did/didn't do what or any of that jazz........I just want to hear how the experiment goes.
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Originally Posted By: lipadj46
Seriously who cares too much about the jiffy lube angle?


Guys my point is that for someone who does not do the oil changes themselves and take their vehicle to Jiffy Lube they are going to get a service that WILL extended the life of their vehicle.

Changing oil is a good thing. That is a FACT. The person coming here for accurate info to see that they are doing well (and let's say using Fram filters and conventional oil) are going to be okay with their choices.

Stating that there are other choices for filters is great as is showing how others do their maintenance another way (ie extended OCIs and how to change their own oil) But coming out and making the comments that have been the rule here is not correct. And that is my main point as someone who tries to keep it real.

PLEASE don't come out with the koolaid statements without getting ALL the INFO on the person asking the question. You are not doing them any GOOD.

This thread shows that there are people that don't change their oil as often as they should (or say (hello Toyota sludge engines) and looking at the photos, the Fram filter did well in the conditions it was subjected to. (and in NORMAL service would have performed JUST AS WELL as any other filter)

I'd love to see her receipts from Jiffy Lube showing all the info. Once I see those then we can go ballistic on Jiffy Lube.

Until then I'll stay with what I know, personally witnessing hundreds of quick oil changes done correctly.

Agree that it will be interesting (I wish the OP did photos before and a UOA on the old oil) to see how this 1ZZFE engine does. Knowing the engine I think it will be okay IF it sees some proper maintenance.

Bill
 
Originally Posted By: defektes


B: Friend did (not catera) oil change with a fram and JL did not change the filter on last change.




Ok, except that is not a consumer oil filter it is a PRO series therefore a shop would have had to install it(as said they come in 12 pack cases).
 
Catera, you stated that your friends oil was changed 4 times in the last 2 years. Even if the filter hadn't been changed those times, I find it hard to believe that 4 oil changes in 2 years would have produced that much sludge. Me thinks the oil wasn't changed ever in the last 2 years.

Having helped people with vehicle maintenance before, what they say most times does not correspond with what I find on their vehicles.
 
Originally Posted By: The Critic
The picture shows a Fram "PRO-series" oil filter. Walmart uses those, not Jiffy Lube. All of the Walmart TLE locations I have been to use FRAM filters.

All of the Jiffy Lube cars that I've seen have a white colored oil filter.

So, something is not adding up. What did the oil change sticker say? What was the mileage printed on the sticker?


Indeed. The Jiffy Lube filters are white and say "Jiffy Lube" on them.
thumbsup2.gif
(but they are in fact made by Fram).
 
Bill, you and I agree on most things, but I have to take exception to your stance on Jiffy Lube. They have a well documented history of ripping people off. Are some franchises OK and honest? Of course. But you want facts. The fact is many news organizations have done private investigations of Jiffy Lube franchises (along with other quick lubes) and found that they're ripping consumers off. We've all seen the videos. That is a fact.
 
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