About percentage of esters in MOTUL 300V , X-lite

[Izb]

About percentage of esters in motor oil MOTUL 300V and 0W-30 X-lite.

The descriptions of 300V and 8100 X-lite have only uninformative words about "100% Synthetic - Double Ester Technology" or "100% Synthetic - Ester Based", but how much esters contained in motor oils exactly?

1) "100% Synthetic" means that there are base oils only group III (hydrocracked), group IV (PAO) and group V (esters). But there are all three groups of base oils (including esters) in different proportions is in very many motor oils of many manufacturers.

2) "Double Ester Technology" - this is only NAME of technology with some information about two kinds of esters in motor oil.

3) "Ester based" – it generally means only indefinite content esters (1%-99%). Moreover, it’s wrong to say even 50% content of esters in the X-lite because of the fact that there are 8-12% PAO trimer dodecene CAS 151006-62-1 in X-lite ( http://www.motul-canada.com / en/products/products_info/Engine_oil/CAR_Engine_Oil_100pc_Synthetic/8100_X-lite_0W30/8100_X-lite_0W30_MSDS.pdf ). And EWC waste disposal No is (from MSDS) 13 02 05 - mineral-based non-chlorinated engine, gear and lubricating oils.

4) Quote from http://forums.mxtrax.co.uk/showthread.php?t=12096&page=3 : "Motul 300V IS NOT 100% Ester. Anybody who tells you otherwise doesn't know what they are talking about. Just because an oil states 100% Synthetic-it doesn't mean it has to be ALL ESTER, it can be a blend of Ester/PAO/AN/GP3 (Hydrocracked to you) in any proportion and still be labelled 100% Synthetic! ! FYI Motul is very good oil but unless the formulation has changed very recently it is no more than 30% Ester ... Bring me some facts if you want to dispute this. In my experience I have never seen or tested a commercially available motor oil that is 100% Ester. The vast majority that claim: '100% Synthetic, Ester 'or' Ester 100% Synthetic 'are very cleverly marketed PAO / Ester based formulations that contain Approx. 20% Ester. "

5) Quote from http://www.wikitt.org/wikiTT/index.php?title=Oil_Change : "The Motul 8100 X-lite 0W-30 Synthetic Ester oil (VW 503.01) appears to be the best available oil for use in the TT as far as I am aware. Guy told me that the 300V line uses only 20% ester and it's called "ester" too. "


How to know exact percentage of esters in 300V(50% or 90%?) and X-lite (1%, 10% or 49%)?

 

[Johnny]

Only two ways to find out that I know of. Spend an extremely large amount of money to have it tested, or try to fine someone at Motul to give you an honest answer. I'm willing to bet the second will not happen.

 

[buster]

Motul plays word games with Esters. When I inquired about this, I got the run around. I was finally put thru to a chemist and their oils are blends of Group III/PAO and esters.

I don't know the %'s and only they probably do. I doubt any of their oils are majority ester other then maybe the 300V. Even Redline is not 100% ester based. Probably 60-70% ester. Rest PAO.

 

[Tom NJ]

As Johnny says, the only way to get accurate base oil composition is from insider supplied information or analysis with gas chromatography. The real question is does it matter. Other than for exposing misleading claims and deceptive companies, base oil composition is of little use, and exact percentages even less so.

It is unlikely that there are any 100% ester based motor oils marketed for general consumer use, as adding some hydrocarbons makes both technical and economic sense.

Tom NJ

 

[Izb]

Quote from http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=237642&f=23&h=0&p=21 : "The Motul uses double ester as a base stock, blended with PAO. And has around 25% ester content"

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
As Johnny says, the only way to get accurate base oil composition is from insider supplied information or analysis with gas chromatography. The real question is does it matter. Other than for exposing misleading claims and deceptive companies, base oil composition is of little use, and exact percentages even less so.

It is unlikely that there are any 100% ester based motor oils marketed for general consumer use, as adding some hydrocarbons makes both technical and economic sense.

Tom NJ

^^ This. The thread pretty much ends here.

It's useless to quote non-Motul sources and "experts" on this matter. How do THEY know? Data of dubious origin is worthless.

Even if you do get to talk to Motul, they change their formulations all the time and it is in their best interest to play things close to the vest. There's just no way to tell for sure unless you test it yourself.

 

[Izb]

About wear on Motul's oils (from http://my350z.com/forum/engine-and-drivetrain/258663-vq-oil-analysis-and-info-46.html )

 

[d00df00d]

Those charts sure do look pretty, but I don't see that they tell you anything.

Were all those samples sent to the same lab? Were all the cars driven in about the same way, for about the same number of miles? Did they all have exactly the same engine in the same state of tune? Or, were there a TON of samples for each oil, and was each one equally likely to be used in a variety of conditions? Has anyone done an ANOVA to see if the differences really are statistically significant? Somehow I doubt it. Without this information, you can't tell what the numbers mean.

 

[Izb]

I am sure with you. BUT: ONLY producer(MOTUL) have all these tests in all conditions. Have someone seen these tests from MOTUL?
And table above is only RED FLAG for me: "May be dangerous"!

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Izb
I am sure with you. BUT: ONLY producer(MOTUL) have all these tests in all conditions. Have someone seen these tests from MOTUL?

That's exactly the problem.

Manufacturers are biased, but informed.
Third parties may not be biased, but they are uninformed.


Originally Posted By: Izb
And table above is only RED FLAG for me: "May be dangerous"!

...or, "May have been modified and driven very very hard."

 

[Feffman]

A guy who races with us has a VERY highly tuned/built older 911 done by one of Alex Job's former mechancis/builders. The builder is NOT a distributor of any oil, but recommended Nick use the Motul 300V in his 911. Not that it's the be-all and end-all recommendation.

Look at what the professional racers use, Total, Motul, Mobil-1, etc. (Yes, some are different then you can buy at the local parts store) and go from there if you are racing.

Feff

 

[GMorg]

GC and ATM sure have a lot of green boxes.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

I like the Fe in the M1 5w-30

 

[priler]

Originally Posted By: Izb
About percentage of esters in motor oil MOTUL 300V and 0W-30 X-lite.

The descriptions of 300V and 8100 X-lite have only uninformative words about "100% Synthetic - Double Ester Technology" or "100% Synthetic - Ester Based", but how much esters contained in motor oils exactly?

1) "100% Synthetic" means that there are base oils only group III (hydrocracked), group IV (PAO) and group V (esters). But there are all three groups of base oils (including esters) in different proportions is in very many motor oils of many manufacturers.

2) "Double Ester Technology" - this is only NAME of technology with some information about two kinds of esters in motor oil.

3) "Ester based" – it generally means only indefinite content esters (1%-99%). Moreover, it’s wrong to say even 50% content of esters in the X-lite because of the fact that there are 8-12% PAO trimer dodecene CAS 151006-62-1 in X-lite ( http://www.motul-canada.com / en/products/products_info/Engine_oil/CAR_Engine_Oil_100pc_Synthetic/8100_X-lite_0W30/8100_X-lite_0W30_MSDS.pdf ). And EWC waste disposal No is (from MSDS) 13 02 05 - mineral-based non-chlorinated engine, gear and lubricating oils.

4) Quote from http://forums.mxtrax.co.uk/showthread.php?t=12096&page=3 : "Motul 300V IS NOT 100% Ester. Anybody who tells you otherwise doesn't know what they are talking about. Just because an oil states 100% Synthetic-it doesn't mean it has to be ALL ESTER, it can be a blend of Ester/PAO/AN/GP3 (Hydrocracked to you) in any proportion and still be labelled 100% Synthetic! ! FYI Motul is very good oil but unless the formulation has changed very recently it is no more than 30% Ester ... Bring me some facts if you want to dispute this. In my experience I have never seen or tested a commercially available motor oil that is 100% Ester. The vast majority that claim: '100% Synthetic, Ester 'or' Ester 100% Synthetic 'are very cleverly marketed PAO / Ester based formulations that contain Approx. 20% Ester. "

5) Quote from http://www.wikitt.org/wikiTT/index.php?title=Oil_Change : "The Motul 8100 X-lite 0W-30 Synthetic Ester oil (VW 503.01) appears to be the best available oil for use in the TT as far as I am aware. Guy told me that the 300V line uses only 20% ester and it's called "ester" too. "


How to know exact percentage of esters in 300V(50% or 90%?) and X-lite (1%, 10% or 49%)?



it is true that the american meaning of synthetic has creeped into europe especially considering how much american influence(political and otherwise)there is across the entire face of the planet,especially in how DEALERS word a particular oil on their website. however,most european companies still describe their oils(on their homepage or principal distributor in another country) in a much more honest way,especially if you understand the lingo involved.

for example,i have seen a particular pentosin product discribed over here(US) as a synthetic(i forget the exact words they used now,but definately a real synthetic)and yet,when you go over to the pentosin homepage in germany,they clearly make a distinction as that particular oil being a HC(hydrocarbon)synthetic and go on to describe it as a synthetic base oil only,BUT they have already given you the princilpe key word to know what it is(HC),if you actually know what that is. then,they have another section where they have fully synthetic products.(the real synthetics by there own definition)
i have seen other examples of this too.

as far as motul,here is my take on it:they don't try to fool the public on purpose but you have to understand the lingo.dealers sometimes mix around the words and it sometimes confuses people.

motul 300v 100% synthetic,double ester technology: motul themselves are not telling you that the products are 100% ester based oils but they are telling you that it IS in fact 100% REAL synthetic AND that they use their double ester technology in it.they are not telling you what percent of ester is in the base oil(VERY few companies will actually tell you that,but some have). however,in order to perform as well and in the way that they do on race tracks all across the world,and they have proven this over and over and over again more times than anyone here can count, i HIGHLY doubt that they only use a tiny sliver of special esters.

my best guestimate would be on average between 60%PAO/40%esters to 80%/20%. maybe some of their weights actually contain a higher % of esters in order to get the job done(what they are decribing that particular weight is made for),like 50%/50%.furthermore,they probably combine different esters at different % that have different characterictics,in order to get that particular weight to perform in the way they want it to.

in any case,making a 100% pure ester oil would not make any sense anyway as the PAO would actually balance the formula properly AND if they did,they would have to use special esters to combat seal swell and a one liter bottle would probably cost about $40.

i have seen no evidence that 300v contains any grp 1,2 AND 3. if you have this evidence,i would be grateful if you showed me.

motul 8100 series: these are a bit more complicated to understand imo,but i believe that they do use true synthetics in the base oils. some are discribed as 100% synthetic-ester based and some as 100% synthetic. in this series of oils,i believe motul is using ester as a tool to get certain characteristics out of each different weight/bottle.

for example,if they use a small % of ester in the actual base oil,it will be called ester based and they are not lieing to you. i believe that,in particular,the lighter weights that still have a high HT/HS(for that weight classification),like their 0w-30 or 0w-40,are slightly higher in ester %. overall,i would guestimate that the ones that are ester based have from 2% to 10% ester in the base oil.maybe some are even higher,maybe alot higher,no one really knows.

the ones that have certain specifications/approvals in other weights,are more than likely using ester in the base oil in order to achieve these. ie:higher FP less volatility,etc,etc. in other words,they are using esters as a tool to achieve and surpass specs.

the reason that you see a petroluem or mineral based substance in the msds for the X-lite,is more than likely because it is being used as the carrier oil for the additives....nothing more. you will also see this in the msds for 8100 X-max 5w-40 although i believe this particular one is one of those that actually has ester in the base oil in order to achieve a goal. others may actually not have any ester in the base oil(therefor can not technically be called ester-based) but may actually use ester as the carrier oil for the additives and be using it to balance seals,which would make sense,but they won't be called ester-based.

overall the 8100 is more complicated to understand because they are made for street cars that have many different needs and applications(SM,SL,229.3,229.5,DI needs,etc,etc). plus,some of them may be redundant or not sell so well,slowly disappear or may even be eventually reformulated.some are made to cover alot of approvals/specifications.

i have to say that the 8100s are true synthetics.

technosynthese: this is motul lingo for an oil that has been refined in such a way as to perform "like" a synthetic. what % of this technosynthese in each weight/bottle will probably be determined by what they consider are the needs for each. they probably use a certain % of PAO in some to reinforce or perform,but probably in small % or in some,none at all.i doubt there is any esters in these but if there is,it would be as an additive.

motul is one of the better oils out there,each bottle according to a purpose and price range(trying to stay competitive while still performing extremely well). plus,if you have been studying there additives for a length of time,you must admit that they show a high level of sophistication. they are top tier oils as far as i'm concerned.

by the way,it would be EXTREMELY wise to ignore that colorful graph above,and trust me on this,it is not because of the way motul supposedly performed. i am NOT brand loyal.

 

[priler]

i should have described technosynthese a little better.it is basically a catch-all type word. i remember now they use the word in a MC oil that also has the word ester on the bottle and semi-synthetics that use the technosynthese discription.it basically cover alot of different oils. no doubt they use many different oils in many different combinations in different %.....like grp 2,3,4,5.

the 300v 0w-20 is probably 90% esters.

 

[Scuderia]

Originally Posted By: Izb
About wear on Motul's oils (from http://my350z.com/forum/engine-and-drivetrain/258663-vq-oil-analysis-and-info-46.html )

I'm familiar with that thread and the two motul samples where tested on the same car. Hardly any concrete info.

One thing I would like point out is that all Motul motor oils are made in France, and sold around the world. They don't localize their products for specific markets like Mobil, Castrol, etc. The same stuff they use in France, is the same stuff you get around the world. And IIRC in Europe you can only call group 4+ oils "synthetic". So at least I think it's safe to say that the 300V and 8100 series are all group 4/5. Motul has other series, which I believe incorporate group 2 and 3 into their formulations. Those would be the 4000, 4100, and 6100 series. And you won't see any "100% syntetic" labeling on those.

 

[Izb]

Originally Posted By: Scuderia
And IIRC in Europe you can only call group 4+ oils "synthetic".

What about waste code 130205 (mineral oil) and PAO percantage 8..12% (information from MSDS 8100 X-lite)?

 

[d00df00d]

Motul has started to use high-end group III base stocks in some of their 8100 series oils, which are still labeled as fully synthetic. They say this was to meet certain OEM specs more easily.

The tip-off is in the MSDS, as lzb pointed out. Not all of the 8100 oils have it, though. I get the impression that they are trying to keep it to a minimum.

 

[priler]

motul 8100 x-lite 0w-30 is grp4/5 oil. the "petroleum-derived severely refined mineral based product" that they speak of in the msds is the carrier oil for the additive package. the 3% that they mention is not even the % of this carrier oil,but the polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons content measured by IP 346(a kind of test) for this carrier oil.

i would even say that the % of ester in x-lite 0w-30 is even higher than on some other 8100.furthermore,even the price for the x-lite 0w-30 is higher,or THE highest,of all the 8100.although,i'm not simply basing anything on that,but still.

it cost almost as much as 300v.

x-lite 0w-30 is sort of similar to GC 0w-30,although,i'm sure it's % of base oils and their cuts are formulated differently.certainly their performance,specs and even approvals are fairly impressive and similar.

an msds is not meant for you to know what the base oils are,but only to give information on what hazardous components/elements are in there.in fact,some companies go way out of there way to try as much as possible to NOT give away(to smart people like you)what it's made of. what they can do and not do,what is considered hazardous,will depend on what country the msds is for and the laws/standards there,and what the company decides.

lucky for us,petroleum components(grp 1,2 and most 3s,plus some elements in the add-pack)are considered hazardous in most countries.....and even then,it can be tricky.

this is why trying to figure out what an oil is made of from the msds is haphazard at best....but you can still learn some things from it.

having said all that,some msds are very helpful and real eye openers. take a look at the different ELF msds and you'll know what i mean. i haven't looked at them all but some of them clearly say "made from"(or words to the same effect)refined mineral and synthetic and others simply say refined mineral....even though these are clearly being sold as synthetics.(also take a look at the total or what is the equivalent elf to total).(there are other brands too).....and yet,elf excellium full-tech 0w-30 is the one they call 100% synthetic and when you open up the msds it say very clearly made from synthetic base oils(POA).

so yes,european oils are being sold as synthetics that are not all grp 4/5.

remember,most of the specs for an oil,is for fresh oil.that doesn't mean it will be the same 5k miles down the road.this is where a true grp4/5 will pay dividens,not to mention benefits from get-go.

there is also a trend of replacing grp 4 with grp 3+.this is nothing new and going on for a long time. however,imo,grp 3+ should not be considered to be in the same ball-park as "regular" grp 3. the problem with grp 3(and calling it synthetic)is that it could be a grp 2 that has been slightly modified and viola,instant synthetic.it could also range in quality anywhere in the middle,...but grp 3+ is different.

if you were to make two oils,one a grp 3+ and the other a grp 4,using similar cuts and everything else as equal as possible,where the only difference was in grp 3+ or 4,i would dare you to tell the difference in any engine and circumstance. for example,if i remember correctly,shell helix ultra 5w-40(and most wts),which is considered a good oil in other parts of the world,is a grp 3+ oil.

this doesn't mean i'm happy about this trend.mostly,because they are not passing the savings to the end user(you),...and because of all the confusion(with grp 3 in general) and being able to call it synthetic.

there is something that you can do,....vote with your dollars....look for oils that are specifically made with PAO/ester,even if it means buying from a smaller company that's not spending big bucks on advertising.many people turn there nose at smaller companies,but many of them really know what their doing and make a great product.

 

[priler]

note: even if an oil has certain specs and approvals,the company is allowed to change the formulation(like the base oils) as long as this change doesn't disqualify it for those same approvals,or keep it from meeting these.this is mostly where the move from grp4 to grp 3+ has been.

at any given time,bottles can be pulled from any shelf and tested to see if there is any change(below the specs for the approval) and if there is,there are issues and further testing and a possible dis-approval.