Will E15 damage older vehicles?

[Russell]

As many of you know the US EPA is considering mandating(?) 15% ethanol in fuels, perhaps in late 2010.

Politics aside, what would be the impact of 15% ethanol on our older vehicles?

EPA is testing only a very small number of newer vehicles and is initially saying that 2001 and newer vehicles NOT should experience any issues. What about older vehicles.

I am most concerned about my older BMW that requires preminum fuel.

 

[ADFD1]

I don't see anything good coming out of it for us guys running older vehicles. If I happens I'll be increasing my dose of MMO in the gas, and hoping for the best.

 

[440Magnum]

Well, I've already replaced every inch of standard fuel hose with fuel injection hose on my '66 and '69. Carbs are fitted with alcohol-tolerant gaskets and floats, and the fuel pumps are new enough that they should tolerate it fine too. Other than that, there's nothing in their systems that could be actually damaged, but I figure performance will start to take a hit at anything over 10%. :-(

 

[01rangerxl]

Ethanol actually raises the octane, so it's not necessarily bad for something needing premium. E85 is 105 and E10 is 89.

 

[Russell]

Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
Ethanol actually raises the octane, so it's not necessarily bad for something needing premium. E85 is 105 and E10 is 89.

I used a flex fuel Jeep. 13.5 mpg on interstate witth E85 and at least 17 mpg with 87 E10. E*% is rare in KY.

 

[getnpsi]

Ethanol does raise octane, but they will blend it with lower octane fuel resulting in the same effective 87 octane number. California as always will be ahead of the curve showing how to cap the performance of a vehicle with knock sensors.

 

[mechtech2]

Right.
Who cares what the octane rating of pure alcohol is?
It is a non factor.
The final mix is the final mix. Whether or not they use chemicals, additives, or alcohol to get to the desired octane.

 

[JHZR2]

Id be afraid for rubber parts. If replaced, no big deal. The biodiesel folks have all gone through this.

 

[Eddie]

+1getnpsi. 87 octane fuel with or without ethnol is still 87 octane. Will E15 dmage older cars? No one can answer that yet as testing is being done as we type. I suspect it might be dentramental in the long term to cars made before 1990 but, who knows at this time. We do know it will lower fuel mileage by ~ 6.1%

 

[Leo]

Ethanol might have higher octane but the enthalpy of combustion is lower. People always get the 2 confused ie higher octane must mean better mileage.

 

[eljefino]

I'd like to rejet my cycle carbs to whatever mix they stick with. It's a perpetually moving target though it seems.

For now, it gets a lean miss once in a while on E10... that unburnt gas goes right out the tailpipe.

My 1982 carbs are sealed against molesting... in the name of clean air.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
Ethanol actually raises the octane, so it's not necessarily bad for something needing premium. E85 is 105 and E10 is 89.


I wasn't referring to octane, I was referring to A/F ratio issues. At >10% ethanol it might be necessary to re-jet to keep the mixture from going lean. If the octane really would go up, it would be a worthwhile trade for my '66, but I suspect they'll just cut back other components of the blend to keep premium octane right around 93 (R+M)/2.

 

[mechtech2]

Leo - I had to look 'enthalpy' up.
But yes, alcohol has less power/heat/ than gasoline.

 

[pavelow]

The problem with higher alcohol content in fuel is the fuel calibration of the carb or fuel injection system. In the case of a carb, you have to rejet and retune and possibly upgrade gaskets and fuel lines if not already running compatible stuff. Very easy and simple tasks to accomplish. But the amount of carb'd vehicles on the road on a daily basis is nill compared to the amount of fuel injected vehicles, so I will concentrate on them here. If the fuel injected vehicle is not a flex fuel vehicle, the PCM (computer) is NOT programmed to run on 15%. They are calibrated to run on 10%. That means if you run 15%, it will most likely start bad and run bad, not to mention any rubber within the system will degrade sooner than it was intended to. Unless the gov't is going to recalibrate computers and upgrade fuel injection system rubber components, I can see nothing but problems. They really need to think this one through.

 

[pavelow]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Leo - I had to look 'enthalpy' up.
But yes, alcohol has less power/heat/ than gasoline.
That's why you have to richen a fuel system when running alcohol. Alcohol makes more power and allows the engine to run cooler though.

 

[Russell]

BTW, I have heard several reports, unproven, that some cars (moslty BMWs)are brought into their dealer with major fuel related roblesm and the fuel is revealed to have over 18-20% ethanol. No warrenty claim allowed because, again mostly BMWs, allow only 10% ethanol in fuel.

The reports imply that improper mixes are being sold at the pump. If so what will be get at 15%!!! Not good

 

[Vizzy]

The fact is that 10% was allowed only because extensive testing was done on cars after the mid 80's that proved that parts would not prematurely fail at that percentage, anything more and there will be a terrible wave of failing fuel systems most likely. This is not the time to change this as the typical US consumer is simply not in the position to buy another car.

I definitely don't want to see it happen.

 

[CROWNVIC4LIFE]

Originally Posted By: Vizzy
The fact is that 10% was allowed only because extensive testing was done on cars after the mid 80's that proved that parts would not prematurely fail at that percentage, anything more and there will be a terrible wave of failing fuel systems most likely. This is not the time to change this as the typical US consumer is simply not in the position to buy another car.

I definitely don't want to see it happen.


+1

 

[getnpsi]

I really don't care what gets sold at the pump, as a car guy I'll buy and install what I need to cope...but the arguments/facts of the transportation and storage of fuel containing higher alcohol driving up the price sounds like a letdown.

I also do not believe that e-15 or even e-20 will reduce pollution 10,15 or 20%. I think the vehicles that have a hard time running on those blends already will have nasty hunting idle and all that garbage that causes emissions spikes--leading to WORSE tailpipe emissions than the stuff from 10 years ago.

I'm with pavelow on this as well. I'm trying to not be political, but if the government really wants ethanol, they need to give out converter boxes just like they did with broadcast TV. (they DO make ethanol converter boxes but IMO they are mickey mouse)

 

[swalve]

If there was a nationwide standard, the manufacturers could tune their engines to take best advantage of the mix. But because there are different standards all over the place, the cars have to be "one size fits all" and can't take best advantage of any mix.

It would be nice if they mandated that e15 had to be 89 octane. Manufacturers could up the compression and timing a little and probably end up with better overall efficiency despite the lower energy content.

(Because cars waste 75% of the energy we put into them, there is a lot of low hanging fruit to capture. e15 has ~1.6% less energy than e10.)