Lubro-Moly Mos2 Antifriction Treatment
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to answer my own question;
As you may know, Royal Purple is well known in racing circles. The chemistry they use is something AMSOIL, Inc. chooses not to use. One of their big selling points is extended drain intervals. Some additive chemicals can cause adverse conditions when used for long periods.
Royal Purple uses a different chemistry than most oils. They are one of only a handful of marketers using Molybdenum Disulfide (Moly) in their oil. Moly is a solid material, which is specifically banned by Cummins®, due to excessive valve train wear.Moly is a processed mineral that is similar in appearance to graphite. Moly has good lubricating properties when used either by itself (in dry power form or as an additive to oil or other lubricants). Particles of the Moly can come out of suspension and agglomerate. This can actually clog oil filters or oil lines and the rest normally settles in the bottom of the oil pan. This seems to be more likely when using extended drain intervals. The only test we ran on Royal Purple involved their 20W50 Racing oil versus our AMSOIL Series 2000 Synthetic 20W50 Racing Oil (TRO). We ran two 4 ball wear tests with different parameters, a spectrographic baseline, FTIR scan and volatility tests. The Royal Purple showed a significantly high volatility rate with a 12.51% boil off rate. This compares to the AMSOIL TRO with only a 4.47% volatility rating. Wear scars were also smaller with the TRO. For example the AMSOIL TRO left a .41mm scar and the Royal Purple oil left a .66mm scar. The lower the scare damage number the better! There was also a surprising difference in the viscosity index. The RP has a VI of 129 versus 155 for the TRO. The higher the VI, the better the viscosity stays in place at high temperatures.
As you may know, Royal Purple is well known in racing circles. The chemistry they use is something AMSOIL, Inc. chooses not to use. One of their big selling points is extended drain intervals. Some additive chemicals can cause adverse conditions when used for long periods.
Royal Purple uses a different chemistry than most oils. They are one of only a handful of marketers using Molybdenum Disulfide (Moly) in their oil. Moly is a solid material, which is specifically banned by Cummins®, due to excessive valve train wear.Moly is a processed mineral that is similar in appearance to graphite. Moly has good lubricating properties when used either by itself (in dry power form or as an additive to oil or other lubricants). Particles of the Moly can come out of suspension and agglomerate. This can actually clog oil filters or oil lines and the rest normally settles in the bottom of the oil pan. This seems to be more likely when using extended drain intervals. The only test we ran on Royal Purple involved their 20W50 Racing oil versus our AMSOIL Series 2000 Synthetic 20W50 Racing Oil (TRO). We ran two 4 ball wear tests with different parameters, a spectrographic baseline, FTIR scan and volatility tests. The Royal Purple showed a significantly high volatility rate with a 12.51% boil off rate. This compares to the AMSOIL TRO with only a 4.47% volatility rating. Wear scars were also smaller with the TRO. For example the AMSOIL TRO left a .41mm scar and the Royal Purple oil left a .66mm scar. The lower the scare damage number the better! There was also a surprising difference in the viscosity index. The RP has a VI of 129 versus 155 for the TRO. The higher the VI, the better the viscosity stays in place at high temperatures.
Even great oils like Amsoil M1 RL etc can benifit from moly IMO if it's lacking it from the blender. Your just making something good,great..im adding a splash to my AFE with only 80ish PPM of moly.
do you need to,,no but why not??
do you need to,,no but why not??
There are many excellent synthetic oils which have little or no moly, maybe because they are already pretty expensive to produce. For instance, Mobil 1 0w40 has about 80 ppm of moly and Mobil 1 5w40 has zero. I would rather buy the 5w40 and add some moly than use the 0w40 which I think is a weak synthetic for diesels.
Originally Posted By: Bigsyke
to answer my own question;
As you may know, Royal Purple is well known in racing circles. The chemistry they use is something AMSOIL, Inc. chooses not to use. One of their big selling points is extended drain intervals. Some additive chemicals can cause adverse conditions when used for long periods.
Royal Purple uses a different chemistry than most oils. They are one of only a handful of marketers using Molybdenum Disulfide (Moly) in their oil. Moly is a solid material, which is specifically banned by Cummins®, due to excessive valve train wear.Moly is a processed mineral that is similar in appearance to graphite. Moly has good lubricating properties when used either by itself (in dry power form or as an additive to oil or other lubricants). Particles of the Moly can come out of suspension and agglomerate. This can actually clog oil filters or oil lines and the rest normally settles in the bottom of the oil pan. This seems to be more likely when using extended drain intervals. The only test we ran on Royal Purple involved their 20W50 Racing oil versus our AMSOIL Series 2000 Synthetic 20W50 Racing Oil (TRO). We ran two 4 ball wear tests with different parameters, a spectrographic baseline, FTIR scan and volatility tests. The Royal Purple showed a significantly high volatility rate with a 12.51% boil off rate. This compares to the AMSOIL TRO with only a 4.47% volatility rating. Wear scars were also smaller with the TRO. For example the AMSOIL TRO left a .41mm scar and the Royal Purple oil left a .66mm scar. The lower the scare damage number the better! There was also a surprising difference in the viscosity index. The RP has a VI of 129 versus 155 for the TRO. The higher the VI, the better the viscosity stays in place at high temperatures.
Truth is the 4 ball wear test doesn't mean much. BTW I use Amsoil and happen to like it, but the test really doesn't have much to do with determining wear in real world automotive engine applications. It is more of a marketing tool. It's been beaten to death here on BITOG.
to answer my own question;
As you may know, Royal Purple is well known in racing circles. The chemistry they use is something AMSOIL, Inc. chooses not to use. One of their big selling points is extended drain intervals. Some additive chemicals can cause adverse conditions when used for long periods.
Royal Purple uses a different chemistry than most oils. They are one of only a handful of marketers using Molybdenum Disulfide (Moly) in their oil. Moly is a solid material, which is specifically banned by Cummins®, due to excessive valve train wear.Moly is a processed mineral that is similar in appearance to graphite. Moly has good lubricating properties when used either by itself (in dry power form or as an additive to oil or other lubricants). Particles of the Moly can come out of suspension and agglomerate. This can actually clog oil filters or oil lines and the rest normally settles in the bottom of the oil pan. This seems to be more likely when using extended drain intervals. The only test we ran on Royal Purple involved their 20W50 Racing oil versus our AMSOIL Series 2000 Synthetic 20W50 Racing Oil (TRO). We ran two 4 ball wear tests with different parameters, a spectrographic baseline, FTIR scan and volatility tests. The Royal Purple showed a significantly high volatility rate with a 12.51% boil off rate. This compares to the AMSOIL TRO with only a 4.47% volatility rating. Wear scars were also smaller with the TRO. For example the AMSOIL TRO left a .41mm scar and the Royal Purple oil left a .66mm scar. The lower the scare damage number the better! There was also a surprising difference in the viscosity index. The RP has a VI of 129 versus 155 for the TRO. The higher the VI, the better the viscosity stays in place at high temperatures.
Truth is the 4 ball wear test doesn't mean much. BTW I use Amsoil and happen to like it, but the test really doesn't have much to do with determining wear in real world automotive engine applications. It is more of a marketing tool. It's been beaten to death here on BITOG.
According to Rosemill's head chemist, who produces and sells MoS2 to oil blenders as well as retail sellers of moly, and the makers or Lubro-moly Mos2 Anti-friction Treatment, those claims are false. What prompted me to find out was I read those claims, however IIRC they weren't from a credible source. I inquired a while back, and would suggest to anyone interested to inquire for themselves, since after all this is the internet. 
I also PM'ed a very highly respected BITOG member who has been close to the automotive as well as oil industry for just about a lifetime and he also confirmed those claims to be false. Now unless something has changed recently that he hasn't advised me of, he basically echoed what I said above.
I also PM'ed a very highly respected BITOG member who has been close to the automotive as well as oil industry for just about a lifetime and he also confirmed those claims to be false. Now unless something has changed recently that he hasn't advised me of, he basically echoed what I said above.
maybe this should be posted as a separate thread, but regarding the copper antagony.... would you expect MoS2 to be safe to add in the rear axle's differential?
Originally Posted By: ueberooo
maybe this should be posted as a separate thread, but regarding the copper antagony.... would you expect MoS2 to be safe to add in the rear axle's differential?
The product we are talking about is an engine oil additive. Lubro Moly (aka Liqui Moly in Europe) has a different product for manual transmissions and differentials.
MOS2 ANTI FRICTION MANUAL TRANSMISSION
You can order from NAPA (maybe) or from here:
http://www.worldimpex.com/parts/lubromoly-mos2-anti-friction-manual-transmission_60878.html
This vendor provides more information.
http://matrixsyntheticoils.com/store/product153.html
You may also be able to find gear oils that contain adequate levels of moly already blended.
maybe this should be posted as a separate thread, but regarding the copper antagony.... would you expect MoS2 to be safe to add in the rear axle's differential?
The product we are talking about is an engine oil additive. Lubro Moly (aka Liqui Moly in Europe) has a different product for manual transmissions and differentials.
MOS2 ANTI FRICTION MANUAL TRANSMISSION
You can order from NAPA (maybe) or from here:
http://www.worldimpex.com/parts/lubromoly-mos2-anti-friction-manual-transmission_60878.html
This vendor provides more information.
http://matrixsyntheticoils.com/store/product153.html
You may also be able to find gear oils that contain adequate levels of moly already blended.
Bigskye,
Please research further. You will find the Cummins statement is outdated and refers to non-soluble moly. Futhermore, Exxon-Mobil,Schaeffers, RP, Redline, and recently Amsoil use moly in some of their formulations. This is more than a few.
The correct type of moly does NOT come out of suspension.
Please research further. You will find the Cummins statement is outdated and refers to non-soluble moly. Futhermore, Exxon-Mobil,Schaeffers, RP, Redline, and recently Amsoil use moly in some of their formulations. This is more than a few.
The correct type of moly does NOT come out of suspension.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Bigsyke
what about claims of mos2 breaking down and then attacking copper after a short lifespan?
what does that even mean? I have taken quite a bit of chemistry classes and no one has been able to even attempt to explain why MoS2 will supposedly cause wear. I have been using it for 6 months now and I have not seen evidence that it clogs filters, blocks oil lines or settles in the pan (and I have had my pan, heads and front cover off). I use it in 2 toyotas and in the discovery. That being said if anyone comes out with a non colloidal moly additive in the future and it is as affordable I would use that.
what about claims of mos2 breaking down and then attacking copper after a short lifespan?
what does that even mean? I have taken quite a bit of chemistry classes and no one has been able to even attempt to explain why MoS2 will supposedly cause wear. I have been using it for 6 months now and I have not seen evidence that it clogs filters, blocks oil lines or settles in the pan (and I have had my pan, heads and front cover off). I use it in 2 toyotas and in the discovery. That being said if anyone comes out with a non colloidal moly additive in the future and it is as affordable I would use that.
The conversation I had with the chemist I mentioned above was quite interesting. We talked about WS2 and the newer ceramic nano particles as oil additives. Keep in mind he sells all three, MOS2 being the least expensive. WS2 is quite good in oil but settles out of suspension quickly, however upon starting the engine it goes back into suspension. What interested me was the ceramic lubricating compounds. He said they actually found them collection on spark plugs causing slight fouling and advised against it. That was also the most expensive additive. The gentleman I spoke with was a car buff and suggested moly as being the best of the three I mentioned. He was quite knowledgeable and willing to share info, not push product. HTH
Originally Posted By: salesrep
Bigskye,
Please research further. You will find the Cummins statement is outdated and refers to non-soluble moly. Futhermore, Exxon-Mobil,Schaeffers, RP, Redline, and recently Amsoil use moly in some of their formulations. This is more than a few.
The correct type of moly does NOT come out of suspension.
I only posted that question because I read this
Quote:
Check out the OEM bulletin from Cummins. It is the Cummins Engine Oil Recommendations, Bulletin No. 3810340-02 . Its probably best if you stopped by a Cummins Dealer and purchased this bulletin- about $2 or $3.
On page 7 it has a section on FRICTION MODIFIERS states:
"There is firm evidence that certain friction modifiers, molybdenum dithiophosphate for example, can in certain formulations result in cam follower pin failure at relatively low mileage"........
From years working with engine test programs to approve engine oil formulations for API licensing, we can tell you that NO engine oil containing Molybdenum additives has been certified by the full range of engine tests necessary to gain API approval.
Molybdenum compounds in motor oils can degrade and cause bearing corrosion and is particularly aggressive towards copper. In almost all cases, any engine oil formula having "moly" will also contain a Copper Deactivator which will protect bearings from the moly compounds. The only problem, the copper deactivator decomposes at relatively low temperatures and looses it's potency after a few thousand miles.
Bigskye,
Please research further. You will find the Cummins statement is outdated and refers to non-soluble moly. Futhermore, Exxon-Mobil,Schaeffers, RP, Redline, and recently Amsoil use moly in some of their formulations. This is more than a few.
The correct type of moly does NOT come out of suspension.
I only posted that question because I read this
Quote:
Check out the OEM bulletin from Cummins. It is the Cummins Engine Oil Recommendations, Bulletin No. 3810340-02 . Its probably best if you stopped by a Cummins Dealer and purchased this bulletin- about $2 or $3.
On page 7 it has a section on FRICTION MODIFIERS states:
"There is firm evidence that certain friction modifiers, molybdenum dithiophosphate for example, can in certain formulations result in cam follower pin failure at relatively low mileage"........
From years working with engine test programs to approve engine oil formulations for API licensing, we can tell you that NO engine oil containing Molybdenum additives has been certified by the full range of engine tests necessary to gain API approval.
Molybdenum compounds in motor oils can degrade and cause bearing corrosion and is particularly aggressive towards copper. In almost all cases, any engine oil formula having "moly" will also contain a Copper Deactivator which will protect bearings from the moly compounds. The only problem, the copper deactivator decomposes at relatively low temperatures and looses it's potency after a few thousand miles.
Originally Posted By: Bigsyke
Originally Posted By: salesrep
Bigskye,
Please research further. You will find the Cummins statement is outdated and refers to non-soluble moly. Futhermore, Exxon-Mobil,Schaeffers, RP, Redline, and recently Amsoil use moly in some of their formulations. This is more than a few.
The correct type of moly does NOT come out of suspension.
I only posted that question because I read this
Quote:
Check out the OEM bulletin from Cummins. It is the Cummins Engine Oil Recommendations, Bulletin No. 3810340-02 . Its probably best if you stopped by a Cummins Dealer and purchased this bulletin- about $2 or $3.
On page 7 it has a section on FRICTION MODIFIERS states:
"There is firm evidence that certain friction modifiers, molybdenum dithiophosphate for example, can in certain formulations result in cam follower pin failure at relatively low mileage"........
From years working with engine test programs to approve engine oil formulations for API licensing, we can tell you that NO engine oil containing Molybdenum additives has been certified by the full range of engine tests necessary to gain API approval.
Molybdenum compounds in motor oils can degrade and cause bearing corrosion and is particularly aggressive towards copper. In almost all cases, any engine oil formula having "moly" will also contain a Copper Deactivator which will protect bearings from the moly compounds. The only problem, the copper deactivator decomposes at relatively low temperatures and looses it's potency after a few thousand miles.
Maybe a chemistry wiz can chime in here. Diesel engines and gas engines have different combustion byproducts that collect in the oil. Maybe there is a problem with certain types of moly and diesel engines because of these different byproducts? Just tossing it out there.
Originally Posted By: salesrep
Bigskye,
Please research further. You will find the Cummins statement is outdated and refers to non-soluble moly. Futhermore, Exxon-Mobil,Schaeffers, RP, Redline, and recently Amsoil use moly in some of their formulations. This is more than a few.
The correct type of moly does NOT come out of suspension.
I only posted that question because I read this
Quote:
Check out the OEM bulletin from Cummins. It is the Cummins Engine Oil Recommendations, Bulletin No. 3810340-02 . Its probably best if you stopped by a Cummins Dealer and purchased this bulletin- about $2 or $3.
On page 7 it has a section on FRICTION MODIFIERS states:
"There is firm evidence that certain friction modifiers, molybdenum dithiophosphate for example, can in certain formulations result in cam follower pin failure at relatively low mileage"........
From years working with engine test programs to approve engine oil formulations for API licensing, we can tell you that NO engine oil containing Molybdenum additives has been certified by the full range of engine tests necessary to gain API approval.
Molybdenum compounds in motor oils can degrade and cause bearing corrosion and is particularly aggressive towards copper. In almost all cases, any engine oil formula having "moly" will also contain a Copper Deactivator which will protect bearings from the moly compounds. The only problem, the copper deactivator decomposes at relatively low temperatures and looses it's potency after a few thousand miles.
Maybe a chemistry wiz can chime in here. Diesel engines and gas engines have different combustion byproducts that collect in the oil. Maybe there is a problem with certain types of moly and diesel engines because of these different byproducts? Just tossing it out there.
YOur source is incorrect.
Originally Posted By: ADFD1
MOS2 is not the same thing as molybdenum dithiophosphate. Wonder if that makes a difference, my research also said MOS2 was harmless. Interesting.
This is key.!.!.!
"From years working with engine test programs to approve engine oil formulations for API licensing, we can tell you that NO engine oil containing Molybdenum additives has been certified by the full range of engine tests necessary to gain API approval." Bigskye.
This is an outright falsehood. Ther are several API licesned formulators that use moly compounds. Schaeffer's is one that has had API approvals for four (4) plus DECADES.
Originally Posted By: ADFD1
MOS2 is not the same thing as molybdenum dithiophosphate. Wonder if that makes a difference, my research also said MOS2 was harmless. Interesting.
This is key.!.!.!
"From years working with engine test programs to approve engine oil formulations for API licensing, we can tell you that NO engine oil containing Molybdenum additives has been certified by the full range of engine tests necessary to gain API approval." Bigskye.
This is an outright falsehood. Ther are several API licesned formulators that use moly compounds. Schaeffer's is one that has had API approvals for four (4) plus DECADES.
Originally Posted By: salesrep
YOur source is incorrect.
Originally Posted By: ADFD1
MOS2 is not the same thing as molybdenum dithiophosphate. Wonder if that makes a difference, my research also said MOS2 was harmless. Interesting.
This is key.!.!.!
"From years working with engine test programs to approve engine oil formulations for API licensing, we can tell you that NO engine oil containing Molybdenum additives has been certified by the full range of engine tests necessary to gain API approval." Bigskye.
This is an outright falsehood. Ther are several API licesned formulators that use moly compounds. Schaeffer's is one that has had API approvals for four (4) plus DECADES.
So then were the people I spoke with were telling me a bunch of Bull, and MOS2 is harmful to an engine? Or are both moly's harmless, and one stays in suspension better? Now I'm confused too, but very interested. Thanks
YOur source is incorrect.
Originally Posted By: ADFD1
MOS2 is not the same thing as molybdenum dithiophosphate. Wonder if that makes a difference, my research also said MOS2 was harmless. Interesting.
This is key.!.!.!
"From years working with engine test programs to approve engine oil formulations for API licensing, we can tell you that NO engine oil containing Molybdenum additives has been certified by the full range of engine tests necessary to gain API approval." Bigskye.
This is an outright falsehood. Ther are several API licesned formulators that use moly compounds. Schaeffer's is one that has had API approvals for four (4) plus DECADES.
So then were the people I spoke with were telling me a bunch of Bull, and MOS2 is harmful to an engine? Or are both moly's harmless, and one stays in suspension better? Now I'm confused too, but very interested. Thanks
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
So then were the people I spoke with were telling me a bunch of Bull, and MOS2 is harmful to an engine? Or are both moly's harmless, and one stays in suspension better? Now I'm confused too, but very interested. Thanks
If you buy the Lubro Moly product, from NAPA or somewhere else, you should be fine.
If you buy a bottle of some gray greasy stuff with a hand-printed label, off an eBay website, then you could be taking a risk.
So then were the people I spoke with were telling me a bunch of Bull, and MOS2 is harmful to an engine? Or are both moly's harmless, and one stays in suspension better? Now I'm confused too, but very interested. Thanks
If you buy the Lubro Moly product, from NAPA or somewhere else, you should be fine.
If you buy a bottle of some gray greasy stuff with a hand-printed label, off an eBay website, then you could be taking a risk.
Good point. However MOS2 is the gray greasy stuff shooters use to moly coat bullets. I'm thinking that the Lubro-Moly is also MOS2 suspended in mineral oil. I believe it is actually a quality safe product, which has been around a long time.
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