What is considered to be a good cold pour point?

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Hi guys,

I was thinking about cold pour points of different oils.

there are oils that I would have loved to try in the past, but it gets pretty cold up here, and I've swayed away from them.

Mobil super 1000 comes to mind. Its cold pour point for their 5w30 and 10w30 is around -30 C. Thats pretty conservative if you ask me. Most of the newer dino oils are around -36 or so.

I'm running synthetic now, but just thought, If I ever switched back, how important is it to cold starts?

It hits -25 the odd time in this are of ontario. Usually just in the morning, but the oil has to be pretty thick at those temps.

Thoughts?

Ryan
 
The Petro-Canada 'dino' (wink, wink) 5W-30 I'm using has a PP of -42C - it's actually lower that the synthetic's PP of -39C!

:p
 
Anything lower than the lowest temp you expect to see.
wink.gif


Remember, pour point doesn't say anything about cold viscosity. Think about how water behaves just 1 degree above its freezing point...
 
Not all of them. There are a LOT in the -40s, and many (including some of the best) in the -30s.
 
Based on the temperature you state, it might be worthwhile to invest in an engine block heater or some other mechanism to keep the oil warmer than the ambient temperature when you start up.

A heated garage might be good too. :)
 
Thanks guys.

WEll, I'm not too worried, The Amsoil XL in 10w30 and 5w20, is something like -40 and -45 respectively.

Addyguy,

Now THAT is what Im talking about. That's the best PP of any dino so far. I remember hearing about that a while back. I just wish it was easier/ cheaper to find.

The only place I can get it is at the gas station for like 5 bucks a litre.....
 
ryan,

If you go to a 'Benson Auto Parts' and buy some AC Delco engine oil, it is re-labeled PC dino oil. Also, if you go to a GM dealership and buy 'genuine GM oil', it is also PC oil. I've read in many places that PC makes GM oils in Canada.
 
Hi Addyguy, great to know.

I've been to Benson a few times, good guys in there.

Man, you must be local!

I'll do that, If my Amsoil fund dries up. LOL.

Does the same go for their gear oils?

The Petro Canada Syn blend 80w140 looks like my dream gear oil.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Anything lower than the lowest temp you expect to see.
wink.gif


Remember, pour point doesn't say anything about cold viscosity. Think about how water behaves just 1 degree above its freezing point...


I still can't totally wrap my head around how pour-point and the cold cranking simulation test (ASTM D5293) relate. It just seems that the numbers would somewhat relate. The lower pour-point oils would be the 0w & 5w oils, and vice versa. That's just what me brain comes up with (erroneously, I think).

Then you have something like Tection Extra. It's a 15w-40, but has a pour point of -42C/-44F. You'd think an oil that "pours" that cold could achieve something better than a 15w rating.

Can anyone enlighten me?
55.gif
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: ryan2022
Hi Addyguy, great to know.

I've been to Benson a few times, good guys in there.

Man, you must be local!

I'll do that, If my Amsoil fund dries up. LOL.

Does the same go for their gear oils?

The Petro Canada Syn blend 80w140 looks like my dream gear oil.



Not THAT close - I'm up in Ottawa, about 4hrs away. That said, I have friends that live in the that area, so I've spent a fair bit of time there. Nice area!

Don't know much about their gear oils, sorry!
 
ahh,

we have friends up in Ottawa.

Peterborough has some nice places, and some not so nice places.

We ARE lucky that we have a lot of water around. They just need to clean up the downtown!

Ottawa is spotless in comparison.

Thanks again.
 
Originally Posted By: E365
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Anything lower than the lowest temp you expect to see.
wink.gif


Remember, pour point doesn't say anything about cold viscosity. Think about how water behaves just 1 degree above its freezing point...


I still can't totally wrap my head around how pour-point and the cold cranking simulation test (ASTM D5293) relate. It just seems that the numbers would somewhat relate. The lower pour-point oils would be the 0w & 5w oils, and vice versa. That's just what me brain comes up with (erroneously, I think).

Then you have something like Tection Extra. It's a 15w-40, but has a pour point of -42C/-44F. You'd think an oil that "pours" that cold could achieve something better than a 15w rating.

Can anyone enlighten me?
55.gif


Pour point is a few degrees above the point at which the oil stops flowing.

Winter ratings relate to how thick they are when cold.

Here's a way to think of it. A 20w-50 with a pour point of -40C is like honey: as you cool it, it gradually thickens and slowly freezes up. A 0w-20 with a pour point of -30C is like water: it stays fluid until you get down to 0C, and then suddenly freezes.
 
Originally Posted By: E365
Yes, that totally makes sense. Thank you.

...except a 0w-20 with a pour point of -30 C doesn't freeze at 0C. Sorry about that.
33.gif


But yeah, you get the idea.
thumbsup2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: ryan2022
ahh,

we have friends up in Ottawa.

Peterborough has some nice places, and some not so nice places.

We ARE lucky that we have a lot of water around. They just need to clean up the downtown!

Ottawa is spotless in comparison.

Thanks again.


Meh, its not THAT bad here
wink.gif


East City is really nice in a lot of spots, I live in the old part of town, which is nice too.
 
Hello Ryan,

Here is an excerpt from a post on pour points I made a few years back that may be helpful. You can read the full thread at: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...0796#Post750796

"Is there any "formula" for converting an oil's pour point to actual usage temperatures?"

I would not trust any such formula. Pour point measures the temperature at which the oil stops pouring under its own weight, that is, under low shear conditions. In the engine, oils are sucked and pumped, which is much higher shear conditions and does not correlate to pour point. This is why the specifications call for CCS and MRV viscosity measurements instead of pour point.

Imagine a bowl of Jell-O. If you tilt the bowl, the Jell-O will wobble and perhaps sag a bit, but it does not flow out of the bowl like a liquid. This lack of flow would suggest that the Jell-O is a solid that would not flow where needed. Now take a spoon and stir, and the Jell-O will move fairly freely under the force (shear) of your hand. Then take wide straw and suck the Jell-O - again the Jell-O will flow up the straw under this vacuum force, but it will not flow back into fill the hole you sucked out. In other words, applying a force to an apparent solid material can cause it to flow and pump, even though it cannot do so under its own weight. The reason is that the Jell-O has a weak crystalline structure that breaks easily under force (shear) and reverts back to a liquid like substance that can be easily moved.

A similar situation exists with motor oils since mineral oils have waxes that grow crystals under certain temperature conditions, causing a "freeze point" as opposed to a "pour point". The difference is that "pouring" stops when the viscosity rises to a point that the oil is just too stiff to flow, while "freezing" occurs when the crystal structure from the waxes "knits" the oil into a weak solid, sort of like Jell-O. Crystal growth in oils requires a very slow cool down to occur, often with a pause or soak period. The pour point test cools at a relatively fast rate that can "super cool" the fluid, that is, it whizzes (technical term) right on past its freeze point and runs to its pour point, missing any freezing along the way.

The CCS test stirs the oil (applies shearing force) during the cool down and better simulates the shear rates of the oil pump than a simple pour point. The MRV test cools at a very slow rate with less shear and catches the effect of any freezing tendency.

Back in 1981 Quaker State had an oil that caused over 1,000 engines to seize due to these effects. The oil had a good pour point and CCS viscosity and could be readily sucked up and pumped by the oil pump when cold. However, their VI improver caused crystal growth under certain cooling conditions, turning the oil into a Jell-O like consistency in the pan. Then when the pump sucked the oil up from the reservoir in the pan, it created a hole and the oil was not able to flow back in and fill the hole. The pump then sucked air and the engines seized within minutes from oil starvation. This freezing phenomenon was prevalent and well documented in the Sioux Falls area where the temperatures during the failures cooled very slowly and paused for a while at about +10-15F. When simulated in the lab, the otherwise passing oil exhibited a freezing tendency. This temperature profile was referred to as the "Sioux Falls Cycle" and formed the basis of the cooling cycle used in the MRV test, which was then added to the J300 spec. QS owned up to the problem and paid the claims.

Tom NJ
 
Watch out for pour point claims, I have two bottles of oil in my freezer right now for months, the freezer temp is probably about -5C, (guessing)

In one bottle I have 15-40 Boss Blue Ram Conventional with claim pour point of -42C, in the other bottle is 0-40 XD3 syn with claim of -45C or -52F.

I am running this 15-40 Blue Ram with TBN of 14 all summer, I was also considering running this Blue Ram in my truck this winter after hearing the amazing -42C pour point, infact the Boss rep recommended I use the Blue Ram all winter rather than switching to syn oil.

I fully understand the better flow of syn over conventional, but remember the Boss claim of -42C pour point, when I tip both frozen beer bottles of oil over similtaneously the XD3 hits the bottom and is completely drained except a light film on side of bottle and in that duration the Boss oil is 1/2 way to the bottom of bottle and layered 1/4" thick in a glob on side of bottle. I can easily drain the XD3 syn back and forth 2-3 times before the Blue Ram just barely touches the bottom. I expected better from the Boss oil considering the freezer temp is only about -5C and Boss claims nearly equal point XD3 syn.

I now test all oils this way, I always keep the XD3 in bottle in freezer and if I do consider to try any different brand other than XD3 syn then I pour a new oil in a new bottle and compare it to XD3 syn a few days later. If it does not measure up to XD3 syn in -5C then I dont trust it in -40 C or F.

I use clear miller high life beer bottles with saran wrap and elastic band to seal top, works great to view how different oils pour cold.

Freezer oil tests are not new to Bitog, I learned to do this test here in Bitog, good idea to see first hand with this simple freeze test on oil if one lives in a harsh climate like mine. Simply find a proven highly rated and PROVEN pour point oil like XD3 syn, if for any reason one considers another different oil then use this freezer test, at about -5C one gets a pretty good idea on how the oil measures up. I have also tested XD3 syn when -45C outside, it does flow, considering Blue Ram flow at -5C I dont believe it would move in -42C as claimed in my opinion. I will take both these bottles out of freezer and set them outside this winter when it hits -40 or lower and tip them over, sounds like another cold one comming this year so I will have lots opportunity.

Cyprs
 
TomNJ, interesting post, your post entered before I submitted my post, had I seen your post first I would have learned rather than post my two cents. I am going to start learning more on and paying more attention to CCS and MRV specs over pour point.

Cyprs
 
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