Was this a mistake (alignment) + caster ?

[mechanicx]

Well we were probably all assuming your first alignment print off was accurate. Your first aligment print out had correct toe and didn't show anything that would cause a pull to the left (?) besides the Caster. Caster doesn't normally cause pulling as bad as Camber and toe will. Btw, some Accords sure have little postive Caster.

This makes you wonder just how inaccurate alignment print outs can be. Sucks you had to pay for 2 alignments. Is this because their machine is off or could they be fudging the toe reading? Anyone can explain it?

 

[nfs480]

No, I worked directly with him in the shop on both alignments, he's a good buddy of mine so I saw everything done from start to finish, so I know the numbers aren't fudged. The car had a lot of pulling before the first alignment and that alignment corrected it and it drove straight. After the installation of new tires the car started pulling again. Realigned it and now it drives straight.

EDIT: It was also a pull to the right, not left.

 

[mechanicx]

OK I'm confused now. Someone else Nayov I think was also talking about a pull to the left and that the alignment shop checked again and then gave him the buzz off. Your high left Caster would've caused a pull to the right the if at all. I'm totally confused now and would have to re-read the posts. Are you the only one that posted the alignment printouts or no?

Anyway, I don't think new tires should affect toe or any other alignment because it's measured at the wheel rims and not the tires anyway.

 

[nfs480]

All the printouts are mine.

 

[Papa Bear]

Originally Posted By: nfs480
You should really have an alignment done after you get new tires because they really can throw the readings off.


Why would replacing 4 tires with the same size disturb the alignment ??......
Are you saying that I have to get my vehicle aligned each time I change tires ?

 

[nfs480]

I don't know, it's just the way it happened to me. Although the previous tires were two different sets of tires, one set of Enduros in the front and a set of Yokohamas in the back. They were all 195/60R14 though. Not sure if the different sets made a difference.

 

[CharBaby]

Nayov,
Im not reading everyones responce so if this has been covered already...Sorry!
Switch the 2 front tire and see if the vehicle now pulls to the left. And tell me you didn't buy Good/Year tires!

I have found over the last 30 years that tires have radial pull.
Almost every set of tires that I buy give me trouble especially Good/Year(Bad/Year). Tires shimmy on the highway, pull to one side or the other and some just can't be balance very easily. Sometimes the installers just can't do anything especially after they've already done all they can(Hunter Road Force Balance, 4 wheel allignment etc). Im starting to buy better tires these days(by ratings not by price). Im becoming more educated. Im also reading more and more that tires are not round(or as round as they should be) and some tire MFG's are claiming to make tires that are more round(er) than other MFG's. Tires that don't experience radial pull and just balance better.

I just thing that you have a Radial Pull Issue and that's it!

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Char Baby
Nayov,
Im not reading everyones responce so if this has been covered already...Sorry!
Switch the 2 front tire and see if the vehicle now pulls to the left. And tell me you didn't buy Good/Year tires!

I have found over the last 30 years that tires have radial pull.
Almost every set of tires that I buy give me trouble especially Good/Year(Bad/Year). Tires shimmy on the highway, pull to one side or the other and some just can't be balance very easily. Sometimes the installers just can't do anything especially after they've already done all they can(Hunter Road Force Balance, 4 wheel allignment etc). Im starting to buy better tires these days(by ratings not by price). Im becoming more educated. Im also reading more and more that tires are not round(or as round as they should be) and some tire MFG's are claiming to make tires that are more round(er) than other MFG's. Tires that don't experience radial pull and just balance better.

I just thing that you have a Radial Pull Issue and that's it!


I've had good luck with all my Goodyear tires. They ride good and quiet. Especially the Eagle series which is a higher level tire

.

 

[38sho]

caster is one of the biggest things that will cause a pull!
keep in mind what caster is, its a measurement of how far forward the tire sits in relation to the suspension..... with more positive caster the tire is more forward.... so if one side is a lot higher then the other, one wheel is further foward then the other one, causing a nice pull..... think of it like walking in a desert when you have one leg shorter then the other.... you will walk circles

when I say pull, pilot the vehicle in a straight line, let go of the wheel... what happens.......

not how the steering wheel is oriented.........

you defintely have something wrong with your right front caster specification, it is NEGATIVE...... most cars run 3-7 degrees caster, with more usually specified on the right side....


you would probably ideally like this setup

-.5 degrees camber for both sides
your current driver side caster number
and make the passenger side caster number .5 of a degree higher
set all toe settings to 0

 

[mechanicx]

Caster doesn't cause pull as much as camber, or especially toe, because caster increase stability. The tire with more caster will be more stable than the other tire with less caster, but that doesn't impart much more pulling force. Caster doesn't actually move the wheel forward, only the imaginary line through the upper and lower steering pivots insects the tire further forward.

Camber difference causes pull because it has the effect of trying to roll a cone straight. For toe it's obvious why it can cause pull.

 

[CharBaby]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: Char Baby
Nayov,
Im not reading everyones responce so if this has been covered already...Sorry!
Switch the 2 front tire and see if the vehicle now pulls to the left. And tell me you didn't buy Good/Year tires!

I have found over the last 30 years that tires have radial pull.
Almost every set of tires that I buy give me trouble especially Good/Year(Bad/Year). Tires shimmy on the highway, pull to one side or the other and some just can't be balance very easily. Sometimes the installers just can't do anything especially after they've already done all they can(Hunter Road Force Balance, 4 wheel allignment etc). Im starting to buy better tires these days(by ratings not by price). Im becoming more educated. Im also reading more and more that tires are not round(or as round as they should be) and some tire MFG's are claiming to make tires that are more round(er) than other MFG's. Tires that don't experience radial pull and just balance better.

I just thing that you have a Radial Pull Issue and that's it!


I've had good luck with all my Goodyear tires. They ride good and quiet. Especially the Eagle series which is a higher level tire

.


Im sure many people have good luck with GY tires Im just not one of them. It's always something! Like I mentioned above; radial pull, can't balance them, even broken belts. I've just had too many issues with GY. On the other hand, I like the Assurance Comfort Treads that I put on my wifes car but, they're still new! Took the installer a few times to get the Comfort Treads balanced properly and now that they're on their first rotation, there is some pulling to one side. But, to GY's credit, they're smooth and quiet. I have GY on everything else that Im currently driving(3 vehicles), even if for only summer use. When they ware out, I'll be changing to something else.

Right now, Im on a KUMHO kick! Been turning on alot of friends/family toward KUMHO and all have been happy about the quality/price factor. Not saying that KUMHO is the answer but, Im tired of paying good money and not getting what I expect.

 

[CharBaby]

I just want to add one more thing here.

I don't think that GY tires are the worst tire on the market, I've had worst tires namely private label brand tires from Kelley/Cordovin, Cooper and what other MFG's make private label tires. I just don't think that Good/Year is where they need to be in the consistancy of their quality and for the name that they carry. Over the last 30-35 years, I've had more GY tires on my vehciles than any other brand. Not only had them on my vehicles but replaced again with GY's. And again! And again! Have had many different models of GY's. So many if fact that I don't even remember the models anymore. Many Eagles such as LS, GA, GT, different speed ratings of all. Had them from SEARS, SAMS CLUB, local tire distributors, online(TR & DTD) and GY tire centers. I speek from experience and I must move on.

 

[CapriRacer]

I am still in the process, but I have compiled a recommendation for alignment to give good tire wear - based on vehicles and reports where there was bad tire wear.

Camber: Target -0.2° Tolerance ±0.5°
Caster: Target 1.0° Tolerance ±0.75°
Toe: (per side) Target 0.03° Tolerance ±0.03°
(Total) Target 0.06° Tolerance ±0.06°

Cross Camber: Target 0.0° Tolerance ±0.2°
Cross Caster: Target 0.0° Tolerance ±0.2°

Thrust Angle: Target 0.0° Tolerance ±0.15°

Yes, these tolerances are much tighter than the factory published specs - and you'll notice that the camber spec is frequently more negative than my above recommendation. As I said, this is based on reports of bad tire wear and one of the reoccurring themes is that lots of negative camber causes one sided and irregular (cupping) wear - the vehicle corners great, but it wears the tires.

Applying that to nfs480's alignment sheets, I am still concerned about the right front. There is a possibility we are looking at bad tire wear there - and the net effect could be a future pull, not to mentioned one sided wear. You can wear a pull (conicity) into a tire.

 

[38sho]

"For toe it's obvious why it can cause pull. "

front toe doesn't cause a car to pull....

I know this sounds wierd,and I didn't believe it when I first heard it, but it is true..... If your toe is off, your steering wheel might be off.... but the car is still going to have an inclination to drive straight... if three wheels are pointed straight ahead, and say your RF tire is pointed in with a bad toe measurement.... what happens?

your car keeps going forward... but it wears the [censored] out of that RF tire because it is now being dragged down the road, your wheel centers in a point where both front tires move to offset the right front tires bad toe.... thus causing even some wear on the other tire, even if its reading is correct. You could bring this vehicle in for alingment, center the steering wheel, and the LF toe is perfect, the RF toe is out... and it can still cause that LF tire to wear.....

if your driving a 4500pound vehicle, traveling at 50mph, and have three wheels pointed straight on one with say some toe in, do you really think that one tire is going to override everything else and make the vehicle all of the sudden pull the way that one tire is pointed? NO... it will drag that 4th tire and go the direction of the three tires

toe doesn't cause a pull

 

[mechanicx]

Well toe apparently caused the guy's car in this thread to pull. I agree bad toe will cause a lot of tire wear and the steering wheel will probably be off center to track a straight line, but what do you think all that tire dragging is going to do when you left off the steering wheel? It's going to make the car lead to one side. It's sort of the effect camber will have which also cause pull.

Personally I think 1 degree of caster is too little for radial tires and a RWD and just barely adequate for a FWD which require less caster. Seems like the car would be darty with that low of caster. Caster isn't a big tire wearing factor. Most cars seem to have about 3-5 degrees of caster anymore.

 

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Well toe apparently caused the guy's car in this thread to pull. .....


The classic definition of a pull is when you let off the steering wheel and the vehicle drifts one direction or the other. Toe won't do that.

However, many folks use the term to decribe when the steering wheen is off center - and that's apparently the case here.

But it is itnteresting that the toe was OK on one alignment and bad the next!!

 

[nfs480]

Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Well toe apparently caused the guy's car in this thread to pull. .....


The classic definition of a pull is when you let off the steering wheel and the vehicle drifts one direction or the other. Toe won't do that.

However, many folks use the term to decribe when the steering wheen is off center - and that's apparently the case here.

But it is itnteresting that the toe was OK on one alignment and bad the next!!



Yeah, i guess I did use the term pull inaccurately, the wheel was just way off center.