Piston Ring Gap Position

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Originally Posted By: 1993_VG30E_GXE
Thanks everyone. I did it like Kestas diagram except for the oil rail gaps are 90 degree from the pin hole. Either way I just don't think this is really important considering 60RPM movement, how much they spin, there's no way they stay synchronized.

I asked another engine builder and he told me just don't stack the gaps on top of eachother, "the exact degrees are not that important because they move"





That's exactly what I've been taught and I practice. Pay no attention to where the gaps are so long as they're not lined up.
 
Agreed. I've taken apart more engines than I could count, and the position of the rings is always random; they definitely move. I always put the compression rings 180 degrees apart, put the oil rings 180 apart- clocked 90 degrees away from the compression rings... and I really don't give it much thought otherwise.

I've heard several mechanics claim that they took an engine apart due to high blowby, and found that some rings were lined up. But that's never been my experience, and I have a hard time believing it. What I HAVE seen two of my co-workers do is this: they misdiagnose the engine problem (be it a miss, oil consumption, smoking, whatever), tear the thing down, then can't find anything wrong. So to cover their [censored], they just claim that some rings were lined up.
 
that is how I have done 1000's of engines and never a problem yet! They will move anyways in use they rotate and will even flutter at times int he bore. OEM's do not build in an evacuation grove so what you did is fine. I would ask you though if you made sure the rings are properly gaped and filed before you installed them? Also youlubed the rings and the piston and the pin with assembly lube?
 
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That's a big piece that I forgot to mention. Durability is supposedly the issue. I run a Total Seal top ring and their standard second ring. Right now I'm at 25,000 miles. When the heads came off, the hone marks were still there and leakdown tests haven't changed since it was first broken in. However, it's only 25,000 miles so I wouldn't expect any major wear even with a ring design that supposedly wears quicker.

I commuted with this engine 210 miles round trip a day. Gas mileage was better than stock ratings though there are way too many variables to blame it on the rings. The big thing is no vapor out of the breathers, practically no leakdown, and the oil stays cleaner much, much longer This car used to kill oil, it would be black in two days if run hard but it now stays somewhat golden through the entire (short) OCI.

With the benefits I've seen, there has to be a big reason why these things aren't OE on new cars.


All the bennies are there, you just gotta wonder about the "OEM'esque" longevity.

It would be a hard thing to determine. Just about anyone using them is hammering the engine routinely and typically has some higher power density. No one does this on something like a Honda Civic or ..my jeep engine.

I'm also surprised that ceramic powder coatings aren't used on piston tops and combustion chambers. I can see skipping the valve faces, you need them to get hot for long term cleaning from the fuel spraying on the back side. You would think that the saved hp in not sending so many btu's through the pistons would be an advantage that they would latch on to.
 
Rings can rotate, for sure.
But I believe they can settle at one position because of carbon in the lands and slight bore anomalies. Also because of the rocking of the piston and pressure from combustion.
Oil scraper rings don't seem to rotate at all, anyway.
There is a reason all mfrs. mandate proper ring positioning. If immediate rotation was occurring and continuing, they would not do so.
 
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Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

All the bennies are there, you just gotta wonder about the "OEM'esque" longevity.

It would be a hard thing to determine. Just about anyone using them is hammering the engine routinely and typically has some higher power density. No one does this on something like a Honda Civic or ..my jeep engine.

I'm also surprised that ceramic powder coatings aren't used on piston tops and combustion chambers. I can see skipping the valve faces, you need them to get hot for long term cleaning from the fuel spraying on the back side. You would think that the saved hp in not sending so many btu's through the pistons would be an advantage that they would latch on to.



I think the ceramic coating and total seal ring probably cannot take uncontrolled thermal/mechanical shock too well to be durable. Sure it does well in a hot rod or a car but when you are taking into consideration of abuse and design safety margin, they probably do more harm than good.
 
I am surprised that some high end Mfrs. are nor using piston top coatings.
Maybe the effect is nullified when there is any carbon or deposits on top of it.
So long term street use makes it not beneficial.
 
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
I am surprised that some high end Mfrs. are nor using piston top coatings.
Maybe the effect is nullified when there is any carbon or deposits on top of it.
So long term street use makes it not beneficial.


That's all I can think of. That and cost. Otherwise there are only positives, no negatives.

At one time I had the piston tops plus combustion chamber and valves Jet-Hot coated. I can't comment about carbon buildup because I ran water/alky injection back then so everything was spotless. It held up just fine over 50,000 miles. It seemed like I could get away with an extra psi or two of boost at a given octane but too many variables had been changed to credit the coating with any confidence.
 
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

All the bennies are there, you just gotta wonder about the "OEM'esque" longevity.

It would be a hard thing to determine. Just about anyone using them is hammering the engine routinely and typically has some higher power density. No one does this on something like a Honda Civic or ..my jeep engine.

I'm also surprised that ceramic powder coatings aren't used on piston tops and combustion chambers. I can see skipping the valve faces, you need them to get hot for long term cleaning from the fuel spraying on the back side. You would think that the saved hp in not sending so many btu's through the pistons would be an advantage that they would latch on to.



I think the ceramic coating and total seal ring probably cannot take uncontrolled thermal/mechanical shock too well to be durable. Sure it does well in a hot rod or a car but when you are taking into consideration of abuse and design safety margin, they probably do more harm than good.



The only problem I've heard of with Total Seals is wear but not breakage. I'm running them in the car in my sig and my father's car with well over 800hp to the wheels is running them. I had some issues with part throttle detonation and they held just fine. I can say with confidence they're no weaker than conventional rings. I admit when I first went to assemble the engine the top rings didn't look too durable but they're doing fine with over 25,000 very hard miles. They may not make it 100 or 200,000 miles but time will tell.
 
Ceramic powder coatings are common on pistons in some modern diesel engines. It's used on B-series, C-series, ISB, ISC, and ISL Cummins engines (and probably others, but I wouldn't know since I quit the Cummins dealership 9 years ago). It's also used on Mercedes medium (900) and heavy(4000) truck engines, and the mercedes-based MTU off-road engines. Probably lots of others.

To their credit, Cummins had the foresight to warn mechanics (via service bulletins AND instructions in the manual) not to bead-blast that coating off. You'd think that would be common sense... but apparently Mercedes didn't count on the Night Shift clowns working on their engines. I haven't seen it cause a major failure yet, but it's only a matter of time.

After looking over this thread, I got out a Detroit Series 60 manual to see what they had to say on the matter. They say to align the top (fire) ring with the axis of the piston pin, put the second (compression) ring 180 degrees away (toward the other end of the piston pin), and put the oil ring gaps 90 degrees from the axis of the pin. Except for using the wrist pin as a reference, that's pretty much how I've always done it. But I'll start aligning with the piston pin (beginning with the one I have town down right now)... because I AM that nitpicky. Although I know from having built hundreds of engines without paying any attention to the ring position in relation to the wrist pin, that it really doesn't matter.
 
Thanks for talking sense into me guys to pay for that 2nd piston ring set. It went in fine. I can be a cheap a s s sometimes, but that would have been the dumbest move on earth - to put it all back together with that like that.

I think I can say that it was due to frustration that this was taking so long, that's why I was sick of waiting anymore. I had unexpected machining costs that popped up at the end - I had to get the exhaust manifolds decked because the center flanges were off by over 2mm feeler gauge. After I got it back I confirmed with a 0.005" Feeler gauge and it's all level nice.
 
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How come there's no transmission guys on this website. I posted a question before but not a single one answered. Can any of you machinist guys ask around to your friends, on who in the US are the best suppliers for Automatic Transmission Rebuild Kits - specifically Japanese stuff, but any stuff will do fine. My guess is these suppliers don't single one market over the other, considering the transmission stuff I would think is less volume.
 
Well, maybe there are. I went back over a month and you don't have any posts in the ATF, Differential, Trans, Brake, P/S forum.
 
There are aftermarket piston spray on coatings that you apply, and then bake in your oven.
Surprisingly, they are well receieved and don't come off!
 
Seems like the reason most OEM does not use TotalSeal ring is here:

http://www.team-integra.net/forum/displa...ng+Common+Topic

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The style ring you use will depend largely on

- the type of engine (NA or FI)

and the extent of the modifications. :

- Gas-porting (on your pistons) [gas ported pistons have holes on the side of them to allow air to push the rings against the cylinder wall when the piston goes up & down for better ring sealing: usually used on a race only piston and not a street piston)]

- piston diameter above the top ring,

- engine rebuild frequency [do you plan to rebuild the engine in 1 week like the race engines or at 30-50K miles for modified street performance engine rebuilds ?]

- honing capabilities [do you have access to a good engine machine shop with honing machines that can bore and hone perfectly straight and round cylinders or does the shop do it by hand which is worst ?]


(These all) dictate ring shape and material selection.


Oil ring tension can obviously be reduced if you're able to exert a vacuum on the crankcase. [i.e. There's more suck from below the piston in the crankcase , if your engine block PCV (positive Crankcase Ventilation) system can vent the crankcase's gases better like on an oil catch can setup or in dry sump engines with block vacuum pumps which are race only]



HISTORY OF GAPLESS RINGS

Childs & Albert pioneered the "gapless" rings back in the early 1970's. They found a lot of racers willing and waiting for a better way of sealing the gasses effectively in the cylinders. The rings were moderately successful, with most of the people running them in the old Jr. Stock classes, where rules were very strict and prohibitive. As more conventional rings received more and more attention, with all sorts of different alloys and ring face configurations, the gapless rings lost favor.

Total Seal jumped on the gapless bandwagon about the time the "fad" faded out, but as I've mentioned before, they became the first (and only) manufacturer to make metric sized rings, so their gapless designs were often the only rings available for folks rebuilding "foreign" engines. This original "niche" market turned into quite a large movement as the popularity of "import racing" rose to the heights it's currently enjoying....and with a lot of advertising, Total Seal has capitalized on it.

I've experimented with some of their rings in engines we've built but I've never seen power that we can achieve with our more conventional Nippon rings.

I believe that the reason behind it is due to the fact that the (gapless) rings aren't as stable in the (piston's) ring grooves in applications where the ring width is 1mm or less. It's a lot more difficult to achieve a tight fit in the groove with two rings as opposed to one.

With individual rings this thin, they have to be made from HARD material just to stand up, and this causes problems too, with many stock and aftermarket cylinder liners. I'd say that the cylinders (walls) would have to be prepared pretty coarsely to seat them in a reasonable time period and once seated, I seriously doubt that they'd actually "leak" any better than properly gapped conventional rings...assuming you're leaking the cylinders near operating temperature.

We try to configure ring end gaps to when the engine's at maximum operating temperature, the ends will come very, very close to touching each other, without actually butting and scoring the cylinders, so any leakage would be minimal at best. When you think about the tiny bit of gap that gasses must pass through, and the amount of time per stroke this has to occur, going gapless makes even less sense.

Ring stability is, on the other hand, extremely important, and this is where conventional rings are better by a fairly wide margin.

Many domestic ProStock teams are currently having Total Seal make rings for them with special coatings (on the ring sides) and they lap them to achieve the minimum ring to groove clearances they're after. It's interesting to note that none of these rings are of the gapless variety. Being a relatively small company (compared to some of the more prominant OE ring suppliers), Total Seal can, and does make a lot of small-batch "special" rings that work pretty well, but these are a long way from what they're selling over the counter to import racers.

The Total Seal rings that are custom-made for some race teams are not the same pieces you have access to either.

Gapless rings have end gaps too, but they overlap in such a way as to be described (and marketed) as gapless.

When you push too much fuel between the rings, it'll finally "explode" if there's any detonation in the chamber, blowing the ring lands out. This happens frequently on engines using gapless second rings.....


Zero end-gap ring designs are constructed where the ends of the ring are cut to half thickness. When installed in the piston, the half-thickness sections of the ring overlap. When the engine is running, the ring heats and expands. The ends of the zero end gap ring slide across each other, which in turn, leaves no gap for the gases to escape. In a more conventional high-performance ring combination, the gaps actually close when the engine is running. Very little pressure actually escapes through this opening. Because of this, the tradeoffs in ring weight (a conventional ring is typically lighter than a zero end-gap design), and sealing capability (a conventional, thin high-performance ring incorporates a barrel shape; a zero end-gap ring doesn’t) simply aren’t worth it. The bottom line: a conventional ring will outperform a zero end-gap ring. The only exception would be in alcohol-fueled applications. Alcohol fuels are not compatible with motor oil, and any residual alcohol that may be in the combustion chambers after the engine is shut off can drain through the ring gap and contaminate the oil. In this case, a zero end-gap ring can prevent this from occurring.
 
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