Lots of Controversy over Nissan Ester Use

[Tom NJ]

I believe Nissan refers to this product as "Ester Oil" because it contains some ester, as opposed to it being "ester based".

Originally Posted By: gizzsdad
I found some interesting info in the first post of this thread:

http://forums.maxima.org/7th-generation-maxima-2009/594149-why-special-oil-09-maxima.html


The information in the above link states:

"It is seen that the friction coefficient declined as the hydrogen content of the DLC coating was reduced, with the lowest value being displayed by the hydrogen-free DLC coating (a-C coating). That result is attributed to the suppression of metal contact at the sliding surface owing to accelerated adsorption by the a-C coating of oiliness agents in the engine oil. Since the engine oil used in this evaluation contained many additives besides the oiliness agents, an investigation was made of the potential friction reduction obtainable with a combination of the a-C coating and oiliness agents. For that purpose, 1 wt% of glycerin-mono-oleate (GMO) was added to a synthetic poly-alphaolefin (PAO) oil as an oiliness agent to produce a prototype oil for use in conducting a POD evaluation. The results are shown by the dashed line in Fig. 2. The friction reduction effect became more pronounced with a lower hydrogen content and friction was reduced by as much as 75% compared with the result seen for a conventional 5W30 engine oil."

Glycerin-mono-oleate (GMO) is an ester - not a base oil, but a monoester used as a friction modifier at 1%. This may be why they refer to the product as "Ester Oil", i.e. to distinguish it from oils that do not contain this ester.

Tom NJ

 

[JonfromCB]

Good observation and great distinction....but, the next
logical question that stems from your observation/comment
is "what other oils have similar additives?"

And....are consumers going to have to buy "ester based"
oils to get/or will ester based oils provide what
Nissan is using? Come-on oil gurus...what are
some alternatives?

 

[benjamming]

or what other oils have the same GMO ester additive (friction modifier)?

 

[Tom NJ]

GMO is (or at least was) perhaps the most common friction modifier in PCMOs, but it is under attack because its effects are reduced with oxidation. Hence oils lose much of their fuel economy benefits over the OCI.

Nissan's recommendation to use "their" Ester Oil may be just to be sure the GMO is in there. Of course a new profit base doesn't hurt either.

Tom NJ

 

[aquariuscsm]

I wouldn`t waste my money or time on their overpriced stealership oil. If I were to bring home a new 370Z today,it`d be getting Mobil 1.........or if I felt ester oil was really needed,Redline.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
I have a feeling the confusion stems from assuming that Nissan recommends esters. They aren't. They recommend their "ester oil," not esters in general.

It looks like their ester oil might only contain a tiny amount of one very specific kind of ester as part of an additive pack. That's very different from an oil with an ester base stock.


Eactly!

There is a huge difference between an "ester-based" oil whose base is comprised of esters, such as Motul or Redline, and an oil having an ester component as an additive.

If I followed Nissan's logic, I could claim that any oil is an ester oil since there are many ester-based additive components, such as dipersants, FMs, boron additives, ZDDP, etc.

See

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=530321#Post530321

for a list of common additives and note the number of additive agents that are esters.

As Tom stated, introduce a new word or make an inference to the unsuspecting public and you will be able to generate a new revenue stream.

 

[Finklejag]

Castrol needs to bring back their GTX Start Up to the market. It had esters in it. My local indy parts store still has it on the shelf. They are covered with a few inches of dust though.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Finklejag
Castrol needs to bring back their GTX Start Up to the market. It had esters in it. My local indy parts store still has it on the shelf. They are covered with a few inches of dust though.

The captioned oil in the 'modern' jug is of course not sold in NA.

 

[buster]

Question:
Ester Oil and Nissan Engines
I've just purchased a Nissan 2009 370Z, which has a 3.7 liter engine that produces 332 HP @ 7500 RPM's, and has a compression ratio of 11 to 1. I've been advised by the Service Manager at Cronic Nissan to run Ester Oil in the engine rather than a good grade of oil, like a 5W-30W. He said that Nissan recommends it. Well, I've researched everything I can find regarding the use of Ester Oil in my Nissan 2009 370Z, and I've been unable to find anything that alludes to the use of Ester Oil in the 370Z engine! What's up with the Ester Oil thing? The only use for Ester Oil that I'm familiar with is for air conditioner compressors and other types of compressors!
-- Larry Young, Tyrone, GA
Answer:
We have not been able to get much information on the Nissan Ester Oil but our analysis indicates that it is part or full synthetic oil. Many synthetic oils, including Mobil 1, contain a variety of synthetic fluids, and usually this includes esters. We would recommend Mobil 1 5W-30 or Mobil 1 Extended Performance 5W-30 for these applications.

 

[tig1]

So both M1 5-30 grades contain ester?

 

[d00df00d]

Read closely. The response was carefully worded to avoid saying that.

 

[Resolute]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I have a feeling the confusion stems from assuming that Nissan recommends esters. They aren't. They recommend their "ester oil," not esters in general.

It looks like their ester oil might only contain a tiny amount of one very specific kind of ester as part of an additive pack. That's very different from an oil with an ester base stock.


Exactly.

The fact of the matter is that Nissan simply recommends an in-house oil which contains an ester additive for use in the VQ37VHR engine. Nissan dealers sell this oil for around $9-11 a quart. You may purchase this recommended oil, or you may purchase another 5W-30 oil. It's a little surprising the amount of controversy this has received, since a manufacturer recommending their own dealer's products and services is nothing new. However, there are "ticking" noises associated with the new valvetrain design (VVEL), the use of an a-C coating, a 2006 patent application, and internet hype about the word "ester" which has complicated things for many owners.

The new VVEL system is a novel design, and much simpler for achieving infinitely variable lift than BMW's Valvetronic. This technology comes with some high lubrication demands, though. According to Mike Kojima at MotoIQ, Nissan has an internal document which identifies the need for an ester additive in the oil to promote oil film on parts which otherwise would experience boundary lubrication and exhibit noise. A good example might be the link pins between the output cams and rocker arms, which see a good amount of shear stress. Another place where lubrication needs would be high is the internal surface between the control shaft and the eccentric cam, which would ideally be served by its own pressurized oil supply. In any case, the mechanism has a number of small parts which experience high loads and stress, which benefit from a polar oil.

The H-free diamond like coatings (a-C) Nissan employs on the bucket faces have also been cited as reason for using Nissan's special ester oil. However, while Nissan's white paper records lowest friction torque in a pin on disk test using an oil with a GMO ester additive, the VQ35HR also used the same a-C coating on the buckets without any valvetrain noise or special oil recommendations, and there are a good number of UOA's and reviews from VQ35HR owners who have used a variety of other oils without issue. This casts some serious doubt that the a-C coating requires a special oil, when another engine with the same coating had no such need.

The word ester has now come to imply that Nissan prefers the use of ester baser oils in its engine, which is incorrect. This is not to suggest that an ester base oil will cause harm, but there are those who carry the assumption to the extreme and think something along the lines of Motul 300V racing oil is the fullest expression of Nissan's recommendation. In contrast, the aforementioned white paper on Nissan's a-C coatings found that the ideal lubricant was a GMO ester additive used with a PAO base oil, not an ester base oil. Further, the only specific brand and weight of oil Nissan recommends for any of its cars is Mobil 1 0W-40 for the VR38DETT engine in the GT-R.

Finally, Nissan applied for a patent in 2006 for a lubricant which used a nano-particle additive version of its own a-C product. The suspended diamond-like substance supposedly reduced friction and improved fuel economy, and was compatible with both conventional and synthetic base oils. This patent was denied. There is nothing to suggest that Nissan's ester oil contains a special a-C additive as discussed in the patent. There are, however, plenty of people who have been quick to draw that conclusion with no real facts to support the idea. Of course, there is little to say that it isn't possible, it's simply a matter of not being probable and nothing to support otherwise.

Therefore, Nissan's VQ37VHR does probably benefit from an oil with an ester additive due to the complex lubrication requirements of the VVEL system. Nissan recommends and its dealers sell a rather expensive oil which contains an ester additive. There are many other 5W-30 oils on the market which also contain ester additives, and many people have used some of these other oils without reporting any problems. This whole controversy boils down to a very common occurrence, then. The manufacturer recommends their dealer's service and products, and the consumer must decide to use them or find a suitable alternative. Until Nissan forms an actual specification for the VVEL system, it will be trial and error- just as it is for everyone else.

My .02

Will

 

[Johnny248]

I just started as an advisor at a Nissan store. The master nissan tech there seems to be pretty good, and has been with Nissan for 19 years, and has gone to every class. He was just telling me about some of the technology put into the 370. I will ask to him tomorrow about the use of ester oil and see what he has to say. I know he said something about it with the 370 and GTR

 

[Tom NJ]

Originally Posted By: Resolute

Exactly.

The fact of the matter....


Excellent information and well worded summary! Thanks!

Tom NJ

 

[RD400]

Will,

Nice to see you posting here, and thank you for sharing your knowledge over at the Z board.

 

[buster]

Quote:
There is an interesting article by Mike Kojima on another site (can't post the address here) that goes
into great detail about the Nissan oil. The price is about the same as Redline. Here are a couple of quotes:

"Nissan's special oil and their newly developed hydrogen free DLC coating on cam followers reduces the amount of friction produced by the valve train by a huge amount. This can make a considerable difference in fuel economy, power output and perhaps even heat generation.

What is Nissan's special oil? The oil was developed to complement Nissan's Hydrogen free DLC coating used on the cam followers in the QR25DE engine, the VQ35HR and the VQ37VHR engines. DLC stands for diamond like coating, which is an amorphous layer of carbon crystals with hard smooth properties much like diamond. Most of valve train friction is created by the interface between the cam follower and the cam lobe. DLC is very slippery stuff and Nissan uses it to reduce valvetrain friction to improve fuel economy, reduce emission and increase power.

Nissan, in their search for improving oils frictional properties, figured out a way to substitute ultra hard nano particles for the normal chemical friction modifiers adding some interesting molecular twists. Again due to the convoluted nature of Nissan’s white papers and patents, its hard to guess exactly what the nano particles are but they are definitely an ultra hard industrial abrasive or bearing type ceramic and probably at least in part, nano particles of industrial diamond

Nissans super oil is around 0.5% nano particles by weight. The particles are probably around 10 nanometers in diameter, really very small! A certain percentage of the nano particles have to be carbon based, preferably single crystal synthetic diamond. The carbon content helps make the nano particles attracted to the low hydrogen DLC coating. Instead of making a slippery metallic film on bare metal parts like traditional friction modifiers, the nano particles act like atomic level miniature ball bearings, preventing metal to metal contact and reducing friction to previously unheard of levels. These nano particles are ashless if they find there way into the engine, making the oil low deposit forming for lower emissions. The Nissan super oil does most of its friction reduction in the valvetrain but it still helps in other parts of the engine, particularly in areas where metal to metal

 

[JohnBrowning]

Well if you goggle ester based oils or ester based synthetics you will get all kinds of hits from past threads here that go into detail! Basicly ester base stocks do everything better then any other base stock in any application from car's to space craft and everything in between! They can take more heat they flow better and more extreme cold temp's they have stronger film strength then dino counting groups I-III or PAO synthetics. They have high polarity so they can hold more additives and they want to cling to metal naturaly...When it gets hot instead of trying to flow away from the heat they want to flow towards the heat!Short of a coolant leak it is impossable to slude a car engine up with 100% ester based synthetics and they will not form varnish normaly either! Most esters in our world are reacted from plant and animal fats but man made ester's are what we normaly look for in a car!

One of the reasons Castor oil was so good for Racing oils was because it is highly saturated with all kinds of natural ester's it is almost impossable to cause something to sieze when it is present this is why it is still used a lot with model airplane engines. Some companies like VP Racing and Toroco react natural castor oil to form man made ester's which are even tougher then the natural ones in castor oil and unlike the natural Castor oil it is not a dirty oil it does not get dirty fast.

The product that made Castrol a a name was Castrol 30R the R stood for race and it was made from castor oil. You hear Ron Howards Chartcer in that hot movie telling the one guy to only use Castrol 30R in it!

 

[JohnBrowning]

Ok I did not address anyting other then the subject of why ester's?

Now if you are spicificly asking about useing it in any single applications I would advise that you use an Ester based oil first if you can afford too Redline,Motul 300V,NEO, some of Toroc's products and VP Racing all have products that arte either all ester based or so close to it that it isnot a big deal. For the longest time Redline's ester based % has been assumed to be around 60% based on it's number's and performance in real world applications and it's behavior both in a test tube and in an engine. The remainder is assumed to be PAO that number has been floating around this bard since it's earliest days when Bob Winter's still owned it and was a regular. Motul 300V is all ester based using two different ester's. If they product nice wear number's I and you can afford them I would only use them as they will not only protect when other oils would fail but they also have more complex additive package that is normally more robust. Redline is often cheaper then Amsoil!

On the ester oil additive almost all additive house's are now using nothing but ester's in their additive package because it is more polar then dino G-I and it does not create issues that might hinder some of the test's now required by the API.Plus some of the non-traditional AW's work best in ester carrier oil. For a long time mineral oil was used as the carrier and might still be by some additive companies but it would have to be a short list. So just stating that the oil should have an ester additive is like saying the cake mix should have some moisture in it?How much moisture? Should it come from water or from oil? It is absolutely as vague as they could get!

If it where me I would start witht he OEM oil and filter and runit for the recomended change interval then I would start trying other oils like Redline,Motul 300V,M1 0W40 etc.......I would use an OEM oil filter to keep everything as much the same as possible if you where going to run a fuel cleaner additive you would have to do it to all the oil types in like amounts etc.....Preferably you want to try to only change one variable at a time.

 

[elwaylite]

I was once scared away from Red Line and the esters, but the more I dig and read, the more I think its a [censored] fine oil. Waiting on my 5 quarts to arrive.

It's also neat to read how esters work and how good they can be at certain things.

 

[firefighter6526]

OK, lets do it this way......If you owned a Nissan engine that was supposed to use the "recommended" Nissan ester product, would you...

A. Shell out $12 a quart every 3750 miles

or...

B. Use substitute oil "__________" (fill in the blank.)and feel good about it.