ARX: Use MSDS Info for Motor Oil Compatibility

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Six_in_a_row

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I wonder if anyone could interpret some of the components that appear on motor oil material safety data sheets (MSDS)? Auto-RX requires that we avoid PAOs, esters, Group IV and Group V base stocks. However, that is a very broad assortment of chemistry that may appear under various names that would not be obvious to anyone not having a PhD in chemistry.

Rather than having ARX users keep asking whether an individual oil is compatible, I compiled list of what I believe are common motor oil MSDS components. This list is most likely incomplete. Would any BITOG members that are familiar with both ARX and chemistry please interpret the items on this list so that we can be our own ARX oil selection experts? Please add to this list if it is incomplete.

Thanks in advance for your help! Please forgive me if I list an ingredient that appears under more than one name.

1. Zinc alkyl dithiophosphate.

2. Blend of synthetic hydrocarbon, polyalphaolefins and additives (PAO?)

3. The highly refined mineral oil contains w) DMSO-extract, according to IP346. (Is DMSO an ester-like compound?)

4. hydrotreated light paraffinic

5. The highly refined mineral oils

6. Distillates, petroleum, hydrotreated heavy paraffinic

7. Distillates, petroleum, solvent-refined heavy paraffinic

8. Proprietary ingredients

9. Polybutene

10. Distillates, petroleum, solvent-dewaxed light paraffiinic,

11. Distillates, petroleum, solvent-dewaxed heavy paraffiinic,

12. 1-Dodecene homopolymer, hydrogenated (are polymers bad with ARX?)

13. Phosphorodithioic acid, O,O-di-C1-14-alkyl esters, zinc salts (disqualifying ester?)

14. Phosphorodithioic acid

Thanks again!
 
"RX requires requires that we avoid PAOs, esters, Group IV and Group V base stocks." Not correct. I personally say no ester and PAO from many years of RX testing but that isn't the company position.
 
I love this site, but man, some of you make this way to complicated.

Im a brick layer, here is the way i do it.

Put in a good oil filter and use cheap oil for 3,000. Drive car like you are nursing it back to health. Change oil with cheap oil, and a good filter for 3,000 miles.

After, change oil to penz plat...

K.I.S.S. for me im afraid.
 
Originally Posted By: sprintman
I personally say no ester and PAO from many years of RX testing but that isn't the company position.


I agree! I wonder how ARX users can interpret MSDS information so that we can avoid PAO and esters that may be lurking in the ingredients that we may not immediately recognize?

Thanks for being a good sport and replying so quickly. I hope I was not too clumsy with my post.

Best wishes!
 
Originally Posted By: JBM

K.I.S.S. for me im afraid.


I agree! I have read so many exceptions and warnings regarding ARX oils. I'm just trying to cut through all of the weeds that are thrown our way! Anyone would hate to waste thousands of miles of driving with (inadvertantly) the wrong or less than perfect oil.

BTW, there is no guarantee that Valvoline Conventional or SuperTech conventional won't change their formulations and there goes all that ARX time.
 
Originally Posted By: Six_in_a_row

3. The highly refined mineral oil contains w) DMSO-extract, according to IP346. (Is DMSO an ester-like compound?)


No it's not like an ester. Dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) is a organic polar solvent. In the lab if you cannot get a solute to dissolve in water, alcohol, hexane, ether etc. you try DMSO. It is also used as a solvent in different organic reactions.
 
"The highly refined mineral oil contains w) DMSO-extract, according to IP346. (Is DMSO an ester-like compound?)"

This confuses a LOT of people. This is not a component in the oil, it is a test to determine the amount of carcinogens in the oil. If it is below 3% then it does not need to be labeled.

http://www.petrolabs.com/IP346.htm
 
Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
"The highly refined mineral oil contains w) DMSO-extract, according to IP346. (Is DMSO an ester-like compound?)"

This confuses a LOT of people. This is not a component in the oil, it is a test to determine the amount of carcinogens in the oil. If it is below 3% then it does not need to be labeled.

http://www.petrolabs.com/IP346.htm


My uninformed reading of the MSDS(s) lead me to believe that DMSO was an exotic organic compound. Many oils list this in their formulations.

Thanks for the link and squaring me away!
 
Originally Posted By: lipadj46
Originally Posted By: Six_in_a_row

3. The highly refined mineral oil contains w) DMSO-extract, according to IP346. (Is DMSO an ester-like compound?)


No it's not like an ester. Dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) is a organic polar solvent. In the lab if you cannot get a solute to dissolve in water, alcohol, hexane, ether etc. you try DMSO. It is also used as a solvent in different organic reactions.



I know some other ARX users can more confidently read a MSDS ingredient list now. Thanks for your prompt reply. There are many oils with "DSMO" in their ingredient lists. BTW, I never had any training in organic chemistry and it clearly shows!
lightbulb.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Six_in_a_row
Originally Posted By: lipadj46
Originally Posted By: Six_in_a_row

3. The highly refined mineral oil contains w) DMSO-extract, according to IP346. (Is DMSO an ester-like compound?)


No it's not like an ester. Dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) is a organic polar solvent. In the lab if you cannot get a solute to dissolve in water, alcohol, hexane, ether etc. you try DMSO. It is also used as a solvent in different organic reactions.



I know some other ARX users can more confidently read a MSDS ingredient list now. Thanks for your prompt reply. There are many oils with "DSMO" in their ingredient lists. BTW, I never had any training in organic chemistry and it clearly shows!
lightbulb.gif




DMSO is not an ingredient.

When an MSDS says "contains w) DMSO-extract" It means that the oil contains less than 3%, by weight, carcinogens that can be extracted from the oil using Dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) as a solvent to extract and measure them.
 
Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
Originally Posted By: Six_in_a_row
Originally Posted By: lipadj46
Originally Posted By: Six_in_a_row

3. The highly refined mineral oil contains w) DMSO-extract, according to IP346. (Is DMSO an ester-like compound?)


No it's not like an ester. Dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) is a organic polar solvent. In the lab if you cannot get a solute to dissolve in water, alcohol, hexane, ether etc. you try DMSO. It is also used as a solvent in different organic reactions.



I know some other ARX users can more confidently read a MSDS ingredient list now. Thanks for your prompt reply. There are many oils with "DSMO" in their ingredient lists. BTW, I never had any training in organic chemistry and it clearly shows!
lightbulb.gif




DMSO is not an ingredient.

When an MSDS says "contains w) DMSO-extract" It means that the oil contains less than 3%, by weight, carcinogens that can be extracted from the oil using Dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) as a solvent to extract and measure them.


Please add me to the dozens of folks who can now decipher the "DSMO" wording. Logging on to this site is like going back to school, but in a good way!

Thanks!
 
The one thing that I get from the MSDS is that Auto-Rx is one of the few products in this automotive segment that can be air shipped globally. I can't even get motor oil to manage that. I asked Frank for help with what was the best international shipping and he pointed out that he can slap his MSDS right on the outside of the package to prevent any hang ups in shipping. Pablo has related his issues with anything combustible ..even if it meets USPS flashpoint standards.
 
Amen.
I used GTX in one engine and Rotella 10W-30 in the other for the clean phase.
Both got Tection Extra for the rinse.
Seemed to work.
We should not over-complicate something simple.
When Frank says use a basic oil, that's what he means.
 
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Amen.
We should not over-complicate something simple.
When Frank says use a basic oil, that's what he means.


Therein lies the problem. Since API SM came into being, finding a "basic" oil is harder than it should be. The new "helps fight sludge" formulation of GTX could contain esters, for instance. Perhaps that Rotella dino is now fortified with some PAO, as another. You simply don't know for sure without asking, and it sure would be nice to make that job easier.

Add on top that some drivers can only go so "simple" for their cars. Some have turbos or requirements such as ACEA A3 which may substantially reduce one's choice in "basic" oils. Not too many brands are trying to suck more than the competition.
 
1. Zinc alkyl dithiophosphate. ZDDP

2. Blend of synthetic hydrocarbon, polyalphaolefins and additives Finished oil containing some PAO

3. The highly refined mineral oil contains w) DMSO-extract, according to IP346. Group II or III

4. hydrotreated light paraffinic Group II

5. The highly refined mineral oils Group II or III

6. Distillates, petroleum, hydrotreated heavy paraffinic Group II

7. Distillates, petroleum, solvent-refined heavy paraffinic Group I or II

8. Proprietary ingredients Additives

9. Polybutene VI Improver

10. Distillates, petroleum, solvent-dewaxed light paraffiinic, Group I

11. Distillates, petroleum, solvent-dewaxed heavy paraffiinic, Group I

12. 1-Dodecene homopolymer, hydrogenated PAO

13. Phosphorodithioic acid, O,O-di-C1-14-alkyl esters, zinc salts ZDDP

14. Phosphorodithioic acid Additive

Tom NJ
 
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
(snip)Tom NJ


I have a M.Ph. in chemistry, and I agree with the above.
 
Quote:
Blend of synthetic hydrocarbons, polyalphaolefins and additives


Usually stated to show a full synthetic oil mixture in general terms.

What you look for is the description and "CAS" numbers:

Distillates,(petroleum), hydrotreated heavy paraffinic
64742-54-7 (Refined mineral oil), hydrotreated means they bubbled hydrogen through a GroupI or II to improve characteristics.
Mixture of Distillates,(petroleum), hydrotreated heavy
paraffinic and Distillates,(petroleum) of solvent dewaxed
heavy paraffinics.
64742-65-0 (Refined mineral oil), hydrotreated means they bubbled hydrogen through a GroupI or II to improve characteristics.

Polyalphaolefin Synthetic Base Fluids
68037-01-4 (PAO)
68649-12-7 (PAO)

Zinc C3-C14 Alkyldithiophosphate Proprietary ZDDP. They had an NDA in which they promised their additive supplier not to divulge anything more than toxicology information.

Organomolybdenum complex of organic esters Soluble Moly.
Specific Chemical Identity Withheld (trade secret) They had an NDA in which they promised their additive supplier not to divulge anything more than toxicology information.


The numbers above are NOT exhaustive of all PAO's and mineral oils. There are many, many CAS numbers and base oils.
 
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