Big problem with Redline D4 ATF

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friendly_jacek

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Here is the scoop. I have front diff whine in my 06 RAV4 V6 that specifies WS ATF in it's transaxle. The whine is a known issue with no fix from Toyota. Some people on RAV4 forum fixed it by thicker fluid such as Mobil 1 ATF. Thus, I tried Redline D4 drain and refill at 30,000 miles. The car drives fine, but I noticed tiny metal shavings on the tranny dipstick after the change and driving just ~20 miles (and never before). I did a poor man's patch test by doing a card blotter test and examining the blot under my kid's Intel Digital Blue PC microscope (a toy, but very powerful, NASA used it on the martian meteorite study). Examples of particles here (I didn't count, but way more than 30-40 in one drop of ATF):
60xrav43.jpg

60xrav42.jpg

60xrav4.jpg


Magnification is 60 times, so the size of the shavings is 0.05-0.5 mm (rough estimate). They are steel (magnetic). I checked ATF in my other car and the WS fluid I drained from RAV4 by the same method and there are no particles whatsoever.

I'm trying to figure out what went wrong. Probably will drain back and flush with WS.
I consider these possibilities:

1. The Redline D4 was bad batch or counterfeit. Possible, but not likely as the bottles looked like they should and were sealed the way Redline oil is. However, I bought it on ebay from a Kia dealer at a big discount.

2. I should have tried Redline D6 rather than D4 as D6 is closer to WS in viscosity. Why would that cause gear wear?

3. Redline ATF caused some additive clash with WS and should not be mixed with WS.

4. Same as above, but acceptable after a complete flush of WS out of the system.

5. Initial break-in wear due to change in friction pattern (I doubt this).

Any ideas or experience with D4 ATF?

Thanks!
 
I wouldn't think it's the Redline. Wonder if pulling the cover (no idea how difficult that would be) is in order to do a visual inspection/cleanout.

At least should flush a couple times with low price ATF, see if still have any metal, then when all clear go back to Redline.

My 2 cents, but I am no expert.
 
One thing that I noticed when I drained the WS oil was almost no metal fuzz on the magnetic drain plug. I expected to see some with that diff noise and tranny brake in. So now to have that many on the dipstick is a big shocker. I'm positive, this is related to the fluid change. I don't understand why.

This car frustrates me a lot. I see similar particles in used oil after engine oil change, too. I had maintenance experience with many cars (including FIAT and Yugo), but never something like this (in ATF or engine oil that is, as I saw silvery gear oils in diffs in Subaru).
 
Install a Magnefine. Whatever the magnet doesn't catch, the media will.

UOA the ATF.

Combining the front diff with the transmission might've been a mistake with the power/weight the transaxle has to deal with.

You did a drain/refill? And got this wear in 20 miles?
 
Originally Posted By: unDummy


You did a drain/refill? And got this wear in 20 miles?



Correct. My wife's short trip city driving. Looks like I need to cancel my boat trip this weekend before I figure out this.
 
the WS Yota lube probably has some special top secret EP AW additives for a transaxle setup with differential hypoid gears in it.

that RAV4 V6 has lots of torque and hp that hits those hypoid gears hard, not much for shock of EP shearing protection from a normal ATF rated product.

moral, don't mess with the Wokie required juice.

i'd put the WS juice back in, the experiment failed.

if you're dead diff'd, excuse the pun, on experimenting, try a GL4 rated 75w90 such as MTL, good for brass syncros and diffs.

you should probably flush that TX several times to clean out the cuttings, they'll do damage in the syncros and bearings.

only thing one should see in a gear oil change is darkening from very fine steel powder wear which is normal. all gear sets wear no matter what the lube.
 
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No no no... The WS does not have anything secret in it! Its a super thin ATF used in all of toyotas new vehicles. Nothing to do with some crazy EP AW formula in WS.

To the OP, not to be a jerk but you used the wrong product. Even the D6 which is recommended here is more viscous than virgin WS. But it is still what is recommeded by Redline and I have used it and it works very well. No metal shavings here. With that being said, something else is going on here. Its not the D4, as it is the same fluid with exception basically of viscosity.

D4 is more robust than Mobil one. Both are much more thick than WS. How about doing what others have suggested. Drop the pan. Depending upon what you find, maybe flush, maybe just drain and fill. Any unusual noises?
 
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I'd simply drain the current fluid and replace with a WS fluid. Just because the bottle says "Redline" doesn't mean "Miracle". Only differential I ever had eat itself was filled with........
 
Redline did some cleaning. Thats what has settled onto the bottom of the pan after 30k of WS usage.

I do worry about 'counterfeit' junk sold on ebay. Maybe you can ship the empty bottles to Redline for more info.

He can't use gear oil since the diff and tranny share the same sump. He must use ATF.

I doubt that this was caused by the Redline or even a counterfeit. Even the lowliest ATF would be able to protect for more the 20 miles if the level was correct and there were no factory defect.

When a gear grinds itself to death, the heat will temper the metal and change its color. I don't see that in the picture.

And, there is an ATF filter. Even a lowly OE pan filter would pick up stuff that big! .05-.5mm = 50-500 micron
 
Thanks everyone for chiming in. I will drop the pan on weekend as I need to get the gasket and filter first. I'm thinking about flushing it back to WS. However, I drained the 50/50 WS/D4 this morning to see any metal on the drain plug. I saw none (the magnet is weak but there is one nevertheless). I saw only rare particles in the drained WS/D4 fluid which otherwise looked very similar to the WS drained on Saturday. I set a few card blots to compare particles between used WS vs WS/D4 mixture. I will use my microscope tonight.

I'm considering one more possibility. What if the fluid change stirred some particles and deposited them selectively on the dipstick. Maybe dipstick is very close to the filter or magnet? And not representative of the fluid at large? I will know more tonight.
 
D6 is the fluid recommended for replacement of ws. Either drain the D4 out and go back to WS or replace it with D6. Its no surprise your transmission is not reacting well to a fluid that is not designed for it.
 
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Originally Posted By: brian12
D6 is the fluid recommended for replacement of ws. Either drain the D4 out and go back to WS or replace it with D6. Its no surprise your transmission is not reacting well to a fluid that is not designed for it.


You have a point and likely I will go back to WS. However, some people tried heavier ATF (such as M1) in this car and got away with it with the added benefit of decreased whine.

I actually expected problems with shift quality, but not problems with gear wear. This is what puzzles me. Or may be I'm looking too hard at the dipstick? Few people use microscopes while checking fluids.
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo
I'd simply drain the current fluid and replace with a WS fluid. Just because the bottle says "Redline" doesn't mean "Miracle". Only differential I ever had eat itself was filled with........



lol.gif
 
Like I said, I drained the fluid this AM and set some card blots. Examined the blots under the scope and no metal flakes. I put a strong magnet in the bottle and found only one flake (big one 1-2 mm). Yet when I pull a dipstick and wipe it, a few silvery flakes (way under 0.1 mm) always would appear.

[censored]?

Am I scraping the dipstick tube every time I put it back and remove? It is hard to put it back as it is very long and curved.

I'm googling on "dipstick metal shavings" and some posted info suggesting that dipstick scraping can generate shavings. Is this what I'm seeing?

BTW, now I have 2 drains and fills with D4 = 75% fluid change.
 
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