PUREONE BETA RATES!

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Just like if you decreased the voltage (ie, supply pressure) on two fixed resistors in series;


Ah ..but we don't have a series circuit when the pump is in relief. In a DC series circuit 100% of the current passes through a single pathway. This is not the case with a pump that is sending flow over two pathways at a common supply pressure.


One the pressure is the product of the current through a resistance. The other is the product of of the current passing at a given pressure.

Two distinctly different scenarios, don't you agree?

The upside of the filter and the internal relief effectively setup a "pool" of available flow at an attenuated pressure. The engine pressure is a result of that single series sub element to that "pool". As the shunt/relief takes less of that flow output ..the engine sees more ..it drops more pressure and elevates toward the supply. The filter, from an interior/exterior view is "less different" ..having a lower differential.
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
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Just like if you decreased the voltage (ie, supply pressure) on two fixed resistors in series;


Ah ..but we don't have a series circuit when the pump is in relief.


Ahhhaa ... now we're getting somewhere. Gary, sure we do still have a series flow path. Think about it ... ALL the oil that is not dumped back to the sump and leaves the pump's outlet port and heads to the filter is the same exact volume that also goes through the engine after leaving the filter. The same volume goes through both the filter and engine. The filter and engine don't care how much is dumped back to the sump.

The oil that is dumped back to the sump doesn't have any bearing on what's going on downstream of the pump.

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
In a DC series circuit 100% of the current passes through a single pathway. This is not the case with a pump that is sending flow over two pathways at a common supply pressure.

One the pressure is the product of the current through a resistance. The other is the product of of the current passing at a given pressure.

Two distinctly different scenarios, don't you agree?


As described above, we are only concerned about the oil that actually goes into the filter, then out the filter, then in to the engine and back to the sump. That is the flow (ie current) that IS CAUSING the pressure drop in the filter and engine (resistors). The oil that is spit back to the sump by the oil pump relief valve doesn't even matter in these PSID discussions. Think of the oil pump as a power supply/current source with a voltage regulator set to 85 volts. A power supply like that will supply enough current based on putting 85 volts across a fixed resistance.

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
The upside of the filter and the internal relief effectively setup a "pool" of available flow at an attenuated pressure. The engine pressure is a result of that single series sub element to that "pool". As the shunt/relief takes less of that flow output ..the engine sees more ..it drops more pressure and elevates toward the supply. The filter, from an interior/exterior view is "less different" ..having a lower differential.


Yes, think of the oil pump as an infinite supply volume at a pressure between zero and relief setting (say 0 and 85 psi).

Both the filter and engine ALWAYS see the same flow rate ... that's the key here. Since they are two fixed flow resistors in series, then their PSID must add up to the supply pressure ... just like 2 fixed electrical resistors in series must have voltage drops that add up to the supply voltage.
 
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hhhaa ... now we're getting somewhere. Gary, sure we do still have a series flow path. Think about it ... ALL the oil that leaves the pump's outlet port and heads to the filter is the same exact volume that also goes through the engine after leaving the filter.

The oil that is dumped back to the sump doesn't have any bearing on what's going on downstream of the pump.



ooooooww ....oowwww.. let's stop right here.

does not the upside of the filter ..and all the space in between become ONE pool of available flow @ 85lb of pressure??

The upside of the filter will see 85lb ..the upside of the relief will see 85lb. ONE vessel of fluid with 85lb of potential. The fluid can go anywhere ..out the relief ..out the filter ..and it will still be ONE "barrier" @ 85lb.


Any problem with that?? NO spin. Keep it short. Baby steps.
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
hhhaa ... now we're getting somewhere. Gary, sure we do still have a series flow path. Think about it ... ALL the oil that leaves the pump's outlet port and heads to the filter is the same exact volume that also goes through the engine after leaving the filter.

The oil that is dumped back to the sump doesn't have any bearing on what's going on downstream of the pump.



ooooooww ....oowwww.. let's stop right here.

does not the upside of the filter ..and all the space in between become ONE pool of available flow @ 85lb of pressure??


ONLY the pool that is left over after the excess pump output dumps back to the sump is available for the filter/engine circuit. If the filter/engine circuit can not take all the flow volume the pump WANTS to put out, then the pump will have to go into relief and dump some volume back to the sump.

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
The upside of the filter will see 85lb ..the upside of the relief will see 85lb. ONE vessel of fluid with 85lb of potential. The fluid can go anywhere ..out the relief ..out the filter ..and it will still be ONE "barrier" @ 85lb.

Any problem with that?? NO spin. Keep it short. Baby steps.


Yes, that's true there will always be that 85 psi pressure "potential" on the outlet side of the pump when the pump is in relief at 85 psi. But what you're missing is the fact that the flow resistance of the series filter/engine circuit (and the oil's viscosity) is dictating how much flow is sent down the filter/engine flow circuit at 85 psi supply pressure, and how much is dumped back to the sump. The more resistive the circuit (and more viscous the oil) is, the more volume gets dumped back to the sump.

What actually goes down the filter/engine circuit is what counts ... not the total potential volume of the pump output including what goes back to the sump.
 
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ONLY the pool that is left over after the excess pump output dumps back to the sump is available for the filter/engine circuit. If the filter/engine circuit can not take all the flow volume the pump WANTS to put out, then the pump will have to go into relief and dump some volume back to the sump.



Waaaaaaaaaaaaait a minute here, Soupy.

Does not all of the pressure side of the pump ..the relief ..and the upside of the filter all see 85lb?

Yes or no?

Sure it does. We'll both grant that in this case the relief is internal .. we also know that pressure within a vessel is constant.

Doesn't this form a "vessel" so to speak. One where the "inside" is 85lb???

You can see that. I know you can do it. Let's JUST keep your relpy to this ONE SIMPLE point.
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
ONLY the pool that is left over after the excess pump output dumps back to the sump is available for the filter/engine circuit. If the filter/engine circuit can not take all the flow volume the pump WANTS to put out, then the pump will have to go into relief and dump some volume back to the sump.


Waaaaaaaaaaaaait a minute here, Soupy.

Does not all of the pressure side of the pump ..the relief ..and the upside of the filter all see 85lb?

Yes or no?

Sure it does. We'll both grant that in this case the relief is internal .. we also know that pressure within a vessel is constant.

Doesn't this form a "vessel" so to speak. One where the "inside" is 85lb???

You can see that. I know you can do it. Let's JUST keep your relpy to this ONE SIMPLE point.


Yes it does ... I've already made that clear I thought.

BUT, that does NOT mean all the oil volume coming out of the pump goes down to the filter and then the engine. That's the point I'm trying to get across. It really doesn't matter if the filter/engine circuit was connected to Grand Coolie dam full of oil with an 85 psi head pressure, or to an oil pump supplying 85 psi all the time.

The fact remains that the volume of oil that goes down the filter/engine circuit is solely controlled by the oil viscosity and fixed flow resistance of the filter and engine in series ... and of course the supply pressure which we have fixed at 85 psi.

So where's the confusion or your point?
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Yes it does ... I've already made that clear I thought.



The simple way to communicate this would be "Yes, Gary, you're right and I'm in full agreement with this statement"...but we both know that this is an illegal state in your wetware.


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BUT, that does NOT mean all the oil volume coming out of the pump goes down to the filter and then the engine.


..and you obviously didn't understand a word that I said. I merely stated that the space/chamber/void/continuous whatever WHEN THE PUMP IS IN RELIEF, forms a common vessel that will be at 85lb of pressure. I never stated where the flow output of the pump goes.

So, you're ready to say "Yes, Gary, I agree with you!" on this limited in scope point???

Nothing more. Just answer this question. We'll move on ..but let's make sure that we're on the same page here.

Do you agree? YES or NO?
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
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Yes it does ... I've already made that clear I thought.


The simple way to communicate this would be "Yes, Gary, you're right and I'm in full agreement with this statement"...but we both know that this is an illegal state in your wetware.


What part of yes don't you understand?
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Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
BUT, that does NOT mean all the oil volume coming out of the pump goes down to the filter and then the engine.


..and you obviously didn't understand a word that I said. I merely stated that the space/chamber/void/continuous whatever WHEN THE PUMP IS IN RELIEF, forms a common vessel that will be at 85lb of pressure. I never stated where the flow output of the pump goes.


Of course I understood every word you said - but sometimes it's a real challenge. I was just throwing in some extra qualification statements. Again, what part of yes don't you get? YEEEEES, the pressure between the pump and filter will be at 85 psi when the pump is in relief at 85 psi. So what's your point?

Now move on and get to your next point so we can get on to the meat of the discrepancy ... that is, you somehow think the oil filter's PSID magically disappears while at the same time the oil pressure in the engine becomes greater.
 
Originally Posted By: ZiTS
I like FRAM.


Now this thread really has gone down hill.
lol.gif
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Don't get off track, and let Gary continue his quest to find that illusive "checkmate".
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: ZiTS
I like FRAM.


Now this thread really has gone down hill.
lol.gif
33.gif


Don't get off track, and let Gary continue his quest to find that illusive "checkmate".
wink.gif



Thats the problem,its about checkmate for many here(not intended for gary).Agree to disagree and move on..
cheers3.gif
 
There's a problem with that 7777. You've got a large audience here. This particular issue was a common question back in BITOG's infancy. Everyone had their opinion ..this and that ...formed much like Soupy's is. No one knew. No one. Speculation city. So, it basically irritated me so much ..the not knowing, that I went to all the trouble to set up gauges above and below a filter ..to use PureOne ..small ones ..used ones ...heavy oil in subfreezing temps. I even bought bona fide differential pressure gauges to validate my observations.

Case closed.

Now a newer crowd is asking the same questions ..and they're hearing something that's counter to my observations. Soupy did bring one thing to the table of merit. Actually I think it just happened coincidentally and he used it as a platform for validation for his whole belief. There is a point where a volume can be high enough to actually tax a filter. The fact that 99% of the rolling population can't even attain it is beyond the point ..but it was something that was never on my radar. Beyond that, we're in eternal grid lock of factual testing vs. creative arguing.
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Originally Posted By: 7777
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: ZiTS
I like FRAM.


Now this thread really has gone down hill.
lol.gif
33.gif


Don't get off track, and let Gary continue his quest to find that illusive "checkmate".
wink.gif



Thats the problem,its about checkmate for many here(not intended for gary).Agree to disagree and move on..
cheers3.gif



Well, IMO it's Gary who's always trying to make me agree with him ... I could care less if he can't understand what's really going on. I'm not going to agree on something that is obviously wrong. He refuses to take this to a deeper level and hash it out until a consensus is reached. Just like now ... he's locked up and won't continue. I'm ready to debate this issue for whatever length it takes to settle it.
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
There's a problem with that 7777. You've got a large audience here. This particular issue was a common question back in BITOG's infancy. Everyone had their opinion ..this and that ...formed much like Soupy's is. No one knew. No one. Speculation city. So, it basically irritated me so much ..the not knowing, that I went to all the trouble to set up gauges above and below a filter ..to use PureOne ..small ones ..used ones ...heavy oil in subfreezing temps. I even bought bona fide differential pressure gauges to validate my observations.

Case closed.

Now a newer crowd is asking the same questions ..and they're hearing something that's counter to my observations. Soupy did bring one thing to the table of merit. Actually I think it just happened coincidentally and he used it as a platform for validation for his whole belief. There is a point where a volume can be high enough to actually tax a filter. The fact that 99% of the rolling population can't even attain it is beyond the point ..but it was something that was never on my radar. Beyond that, we're in eternal grid lock of factual testing vs. creative arguing.
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Fluid dynamics laws don't change. I forget all the details of Gary's "test", but there must have been some kind of flaw as it's just plain impossible to have the PSID across a filter magically disappear while the supply oil pressure to the filter/engine circuit stays maximized at the pressure relief (say 85 psi), and the flow volume of oil increases as it warms up. Unless the filter's flow resistance actually becomes less as it heats up or some wild phenomena like that occurs ... but I highly doubt it. Even with hot oil, if you put enough flow rate through the filter, you're going to have a significant PSID.

There were a few other people here that were going to put a pressure gauge before and after the filter to measure the actual delta P (PSID) ... but haven't seen any data.
 
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Unless the filter's flow resistance actually becomes less as it heats up or some wild phenomena like that occurs ... but I highly doubt it.


Try it yourself. I think you'll come up with a whole new look on how you weigh the impact of those immutable bylaws of fluid dynamics in this situation. Baloney was surely correct, but I think he would say "Oh, in that case, not really".


Like I said, if you learn about orifices, they construct the demonstration when they actually have impact. Otherwise, I think the professor or author would be pretty much a jerk to say "Here's an orifice not demonstrating anything that I'm trying to instruct you on".

I assure you that my testing had peer review here ..and the brain pans were a bit on the upside ..but since nothing exists outside of your view ..then we'll just leave you in the frustration that you've never done any testing ...and rely totally on the work of others that you attempt to adapt to fit your needs.
 
Guys, let's call this one "done", shall we? You two (Gary and Super) really sound like a couple of immature fools! Gary, I used to really respect and look forward to your replies. Your posts in this thread have changed all that. You two are so [censored] determined to prove to the BITOG world that you are the right one that you're both looking dumb. I haven't seen so much name calling since my days in elementary school!

Come on, guys. Can we keep in mind that these are only oil filters, not something that is going to power the replacement for the space shuttle?! Like you have both mentioned (at least I think you have both mentioned, as the majority of your dribble is way over my head), the issues you're arguing about won't affect 99% of the motoring public. So how about you two exchange e-mail addresses, set up a meeting place where you can have a nice discussion about this matter over a cup of java, and then get back to us when you two geniuses have come to a conclusion?
 
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Originally Posted By: ZiTS
Guys, let's call this one "done", shall we? You two (Gary and Super) really sound like a couple of immature fools!

I haven't seen so much name calling since my days in elementary school!


Ummm ... name calling? Show me one time where I haven't keep this a civilized discussion - I'm not vouching for Gary however
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. Your post above has more drama than this whole thread does !!
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I have nothing to prove to Gary or anyone else. If he doesn't like the way I describe how this stuff works and disagrees then he'll just have to discuss it also in a civilized manner.

Personally, I'd really like to find out where the disconnect is on this ... regardless if anyone else here does, but I'm sure there are some who read and learn and want to know the answers too.
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
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Unless the filter's flow resistance actually becomes less as it heats up or some wild phenomena like that occurs ... but I highly doubt it.


Try it yourself. I think you'll come up with a whole new look on how you weigh the impact of those immutable bylaws of fluid dynamics in this situation. Baloney was surely correct, but I think he would say "Oh, in that case, not really".


Like I said, if you learn about orifices, they construct the demonstration when they actually have impact. Otherwise, I think the professor or author would be pretty much a jerk to say "Here's an orifice not demonstrating anything that I'm trying to instruct you on".

I assure you that my testing had peer review here ..and the brain pans were a bit on the upside ..but since nothing exists outside of your view ..then we'll just leave you in the frustration that you've never done any testing ...and rely totally on the work of others that you attempt to adapt to fit your needs.


Failed attempt of a "bail out".

If you're so animate that your test proves everything, then start a new thread with all the details of said test so we can discuss it.
 
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