3 diff. labs with samples taken frm the same bott

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When Dyson was a member here way back when, he used Blackstone.



I'm not completely sure of that. I remember him saying that his lab uses a different method than blackstone to test the flash point of the sample (open cup vs. closed cup).
 
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Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary

21Rouge - You will be aware that over several years I have cautioned against the use of single pass "simple" UOAs for anything other than to determine the condition of the lubricant


Doug, I only posted my 'findings' as these #s came to light in a very unique, almost perfect storm kind of way...i.e BStone test and then its retest, a company in house test and finally another lab who at the time of testing didnt know what they were testing. And unlike a UOA where one could reasonably dispute the #s based upon different variables, VOA #s should be more consistent i.e from a shaken unopened fresh same bottle right off the production line.

Of course I took too long in saying that my original post was to bring more clearly to light the obvious inaccuracies of such lab tests. That's all.

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary

Trending UOAs from an acceptable source will result in some meaningful data


Maybe. But if it is really the case that it is too hit and miss re such wear #s from a given lab and more importantly a lab gives inconsistent results i.e sometimes a wear # is too high, other times too low (in terms of accuracy), then I think even accurate trending might be a stretch.
 
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This is why you can only compare between the same lab because we all know there are different testing practices at different labs. But that isn't to say P-C really analysed their own oil, instead of just reading the spec sheet as Trav mentioned.
 
Terry does not use Blackstone (apparently, the swear filter blocks B.S., minus the . .'s), and his lab is not in TX. If you send your sample to Blackstone, the difference between the $99 and what Blackstone charges is what goes to Terry for the interpretation. This is assuming that you sent your sample to Blackstone because you trust their analysis, but want his interpretation of the results. When you send the sample to Terry, you're sending the sample to a lab he trusts.

I've asked him who he uses. He wouldn't tell me the name of the lab since he says they don't do public analysis. He informed me that what they do is different - he says more accurate, but I wouldn't know - than what Blackstone does.

I'm of the opinion that sending in samples of the same oil to the same lab will provide the best results. I'm not sure how often labs obtain new equipment, but I'm sure the testing methods and procedures would remain the same, and results should be consistent, regardless of their deviation from what the most accurate results might be.

As most who truly understand the value of UOA say, -smarter guys than me, I'm sure - UOA are mostly beneficial for obtaining a snapshot of the condition of the oil, and how things stand thus far in the OCI. To say that an oil went from a TBN of 8 down to 4 over 4kmi, and assume that it will linearly degrade to 2 over the next 2kmi is silly. As was stated before, assuming that an oil with a higher TBN will perform better is also foolish. I can't even begin to interpret the results of an oil analysis other than to say, "oh, look at that TBN and TAN. They look...good. My, those additive numbers look pretty robust, too." If some one asked me what I meant by good, I'd be at a loss for words. I could state the google definition of the acronyms, and a basic explanation of what each is, but to give an accurate depiction of their interactions and what they signify is beyond me and, from what I've read, beyond most people who comment on the UOA side of the forums. While I, like most, crave attention to my UOA report, I take what every one says here with a grain of salt.

I'm sorry to the OP for jacking your thread. Based simply on the numbers I would assume that the two labs who were closest give a more accurate indication than Blackstone. Blackstone may be using equipment with lesser resolution. Who knows. Have you brought the discrepancy to their attention? I would assume they get a lot of business here, and what you've showed will turn a few people away from their services. It would behoove them to solve he mystery and satisfy your curiosity.
 
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21Rouge, can you post the full VOA report from all 3 labs?

I'd like to know how consistent Blackstone did with Potassium, Sodium, and Silicon numbers. I am debating whether or not to send in my used oil to Blackstone. The goal of the UOA is to determine there are any air holes or leaking coolant in my car. I may not send my UO if B/S numbers are way off from the other 2 labs.


And thanks for sharing!
 
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Originally Posted By: mitsuman47
Quote:
When Dyson was a member here way back when, he used Blackstone.



I'm not completely sure of that. I remember him saying that his lab uses a different method than blackstone to test the flash point of the sample (open cup vs. closed cup).


Negative.

Terry DID and DOES USE Blackstone ( I should know since I've used him and he read their reports for me and I also sent in to Blackstone the samples that he later read)

Also Blackstone still does business with Terry.. Check this out --> Blackstone web site

Bill

PS: I see this was answered on the page before. But just in case. Ditto on the next reply...
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Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: elwaylite
I think Ill spend my $99 with Dyson.


He uses Blackstone!

No, he does not. But still, how can we be sure that the lab he does use is accurate?


He does.

Terry at Blackstone.
 
Originally Posted By: Saturn_Fan
I have never done a UOA yet, and after reading this I never will. I'll just buy more high quality oil and change it at appropriate intervals.


I'll do them here and there since they have saved me WELL over $1000 TWICE in finding engine problems BEFORE they became damaging to the engine.

Just changing oil with a "higher" (we can discuss "higher" in anther thread
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) quality oil will not fix problems *IF* you have them.

By the time you see the goo on the dipstick and foam in the oil filler, damage HAS been done...

I've always said trending with the same lab is the way to go. A single report while it may show issues like coolant, will always be more accurate when treading with others.

Take care, Bill
 
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah

He does.

Well, I wasn't clear in my response. He does not use Blackstone exclusively. He also uses another lab. This other lab is what was being discussed here.

If you send the money to Blackstone, Blackstone will do the test. If you send the money to Terry, the other lab (the one that he prefers) will do the test. He likes this other lab better - it tests for additional parameters that Blackstone doesn't. It also uses a different method for fuel content / flash temp.
 
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
21Rouge - You will be aware that over several years I have cautioned against the use of single pass "simple" UOAs for anything other than to determine the condition of the lubricant

I have always used Oil Company Labs (both in-house and Commercial) over many decades for the reasons you see. Oil Company labs are usually also "up to speed" with the formulation of the product they are testing (results are compared with calibrations)and can make reasonable judgements

Yes, I have compared one Lab to another several times when I didn't like the first result - and sometimes there are variations. But these have typically been in the acceptable range

I have often commented on the "entertaining" comments from Blackstone - sadly a lot of it is quite misleading too!

Trending UOAs from an acceptable source will result in some meaningful data - then you need to interpret it correctly!


Really just goes to show what you've been saying all along Doug.
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Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Didn't Terry, when he first came to BITOG, use Blackstone exclusively?

Quite possible, before he developed a relationship with this other lab.
 
Hi,
21Rouge - Recently I visited a major German Engine Manufacturer (and ex employer) in Germany. I spent time with an Engineer (now retired) who had responsibility for lubricant supply

He made these comments (in my words) - VOAs carried out in their own Labs on both factory fill and first start lubricant "batches" from their various suppliers did show conformance irregularities from time to time. Non confroming batches were returned

Trending on a known engine family can produce very meaningful data. The results from the use of such data is most often dependent on the interpreter! I have seen engines fail - the lubricant is blamed - but the Fleet Engineer either "had no time to read the Report" or simply did not understand what was portrayed! The data was accurate!!

I have also seen an Engine Manufacturer blame the lubricant or "third party influences" for engine failures. In these cases UOAs from competing Oil Company Labs and stored and trended data proved the Engine Manufacturer wrong!

We are talking $100ks here
 
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Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
When Dyson was a member here way back when, he used Blackstone.


The last time I had a Dyson "analysis + interpretation" done was back in July 2008, when the price was still $60. I sent my sample to his designated lab, MRT Labs in Houston.
 
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Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah

He does.

Well, I wasn't clear in my response. He does not use Blackstone exclusively. He also uses another lab. This other lab is what was being discussed here.

If you send the money to Blackstone, Blackstone will do the test. If you send the money to Terry, the other lab (the one that he prefers) will do the test. He likes this other lab better - it tests for additional parameters that Blackstone doesn't. It also uses a different method for fuel content / flash temp.


Exactly.....
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Didn't Terry, when he first came to BITOG, use Blackstone exclusively?

Quite possible, before he developed a relationship with this other lab.
No he used CAT back in 2002 when BITOG started. At least that is where the report that he sent me said.
 
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