Are you saying the VOA TBN of Redline oils is 7? I find that hard to believe. They are supposed to have a particularly robust add pack and suggest 10-18,000 miles OCI's in properly running engines. Please explain what you mean. I think the cheapest oil at Pep Boys doesn't even have a TBN of 7. I call hogwash!
PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better?
- Thread starter brianpavlovic
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unless he was mistaken i swear he said 7
tbn is 10...
Hopefully you mavens can answer a dumb question.
I use Amsoil and have read how low their Noak Volitility
claims are compared to other oils.
That said why do their oils thicken more than others in
UOA's reported here on this excellent forum. Were these mostly long drain UOA's?
Thanks,
Craig
I use Amsoil and have read how low their Noak Volitility
claims are compared to other oils.
That said why do their oils thicken more than others in
UOA's reported here on this excellent forum. Were these mostly long drain UOA's?
Thanks,
Craig
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/recommendations_on_how_to_look_f.htm
So I guess the answer is that the Noack test is a fairly extreme (accelerated) test that goes well beyond what's seen in an engine. It may not correlate exactly with normal operating temps. Also - evaporative loss isn't the only reason for thickening. Oxidation and insolubles are suppose to thicken up an oil.
I'm not saying that has anything to do with Amsoil results.
The Noack test is run @ 482F so that you can accumulate data in a reasonable amount of time. It's an accelerated aging type of test of the kind that 's used all the time on polymeric materials.
The Amsoil "thickening out of grade" situation occurs for several reasons:
Their 5w-30/10w-30 oils were formulated at the very top of the SAE 30wt range, so they were borderline 30wt/40wt oils to being with. As little as 5% thickening would technically cause them to thicken out of grade. Combine this will extended service intervals and you'll see them thickening by up to 20%-25% in some cases. The worse condition for this is short trip driving in a cold climate, where fuel and moisture drive the rate of oxidation. GM Vortec engines in particular also generate lots of copper from the cam bearings and this is a catalyst for the oxidtion reaction. Some bench tests (RBOT, TFOUT) actually use copper strips to accelerate the oxidation of lubricants under controllled conditions.....
The S2000, 0w-30 situation is a bit different as it's been formulated closer to 11.0 Cst since it hit the market. In this case I do think some of the thickening is due to burning off of the low molecular weight components blended in to get the 0w rating @ -35C. In addition the average service interval for this oil is much longer than for any other oil tested on the BITOG site. When you try to run very long service intervals - particularly in V-8 engines with small sumps - you get a great deal of fuel contamination. This drives up the total solids level and results in oxidative thickening if you run service intervals >> 10,000 miles.
My recommendation for these V-8 applications is to use one of Amsoils', "diesel formulated" CI-4/SL chemistries. The Series 3000 5w-30, the new 10w-30/ACD or the 5w-40 are all going to do a better job or resisting this fuel related thickening then the TSO/ASL/ATM formulations. The reason is that the diesel oils are designed to suspend and disperse large amounts of soot and this attribute will also help them deal with the fuel related contamination you get in a gas guzzling V-8 that only has a 5-7 quart sump....
I should note that the recently reformulated Amsoil 0w-30/5w-30/10w-30 are now midrange 30wts, with viscosities @ 100C in the 10.5-10.65 range. So I don't think you'll see them thickening out of grade the way they used to do. Of course the Amsoil bashers will have nothing to complain about then...
LOL!
Tooslick
Dixie Synthetics
The Amsoil "thickening out of grade" situation occurs for several reasons:
Their 5w-30/10w-30 oils were formulated at the very top of the SAE 30wt range, so they were borderline 30wt/40wt oils to being with. As little as 5% thickening would technically cause them to thicken out of grade. Combine this will extended service intervals and you'll see them thickening by up to 20%-25% in some cases. The worse condition for this is short trip driving in a cold climate, where fuel and moisture drive the rate of oxidation. GM Vortec engines in particular also generate lots of copper from the cam bearings and this is a catalyst for the oxidtion reaction. Some bench tests (RBOT, TFOUT) actually use copper strips to accelerate the oxidation of lubricants under controllled conditions.....
The S2000, 0w-30 situation is a bit different as it's been formulated closer to 11.0 Cst since it hit the market. In this case I do think some of the thickening is due to burning off of the low molecular weight components blended in to get the 0w rating @ -35C. In addition the average service interval for this oil is much longer than for any other oil tested on the BITOG site. When you try to run very long service intervals - particularly in V-8 engines with small sumps - you get a great deal of fuel contamination. This drives up the total solids level and results in oxidative thickening if you run service intervals >> 10,000 miles.
My recommendation for these V-8 applications is to use one of Amsoils', "diesel formulated" CI-4/SL chemistries. The Series 3000 5w-30, the new 10w-30/ACD or the 5w-40 are all going to do a better job or resisting this fuel related thickening then the TSO/ASL/ATM formulations. The reason is that the diesel oils are designed to suspend and disperse large amounts of soot and this attribute will also help them deal with the fuel related contamination you get in a gas guzzling V-8 that only has a 5-7 quart sump....
I should note that the recently reformulated Amsoil 0w-30/5w-30/10w-30 are now midrange 30wts, with viscosities @ 100C in the 10.5-10.65 range. So I don't think you'll see them thickening out of grade the way they used to do. Of course the Amsoil bashers will have nothing to complain about then...
Tooslick
Dixie Synthetics
I have some new info to share. LOL.
I called Elf and spoke with Laurant (sp?). He said what Molekule said in that you can only have at most, 50% Ester in the mix for a 4 stroke engine. He said esters are great for 2 stroke, but not 4 stroke. Seal leakage is a problem and he also said he doesn't know of any 100% ester based oils. They are not ideal.
*He said even their F1 oils are 80% PAO. So if this is correct, RL is probably at most 50% PAO and 50% POE. I do trust Elf, Shell and XOM because these companies to work very closely with these racing teams. Doesn't mean the others are not capable, but I do see some common denominator among the big companies. M1R was also mostly PAO.
Bottom line though is that Esters are not all that great for 4 stroke engines and that Group II+, III, and IV with a good add pack are every bit as good for some applications. Hasn't the analysis on BITOG shown that? I think so. Elf as you know is used in 4 F1 teams right now.
RL's racing oils might be all POE, but that is just a guess.
BTW, the guy is very nice and informative. I'd give Elf my business.
I called Elf and spoke with Laurant (sp?). He said what Molekule said in that you can only have at most, 50% Ester in the mix for a 4 stroke engine. He said esters are great for 2 stroke, but not 4 stroke. Seal leakage is a problem and he also said he doesn't know of any 100% ester based oils. They are not ideal.
*He said even their F1 oils are 80% PAO. So if this is correct, RL is probably at most 50% PAO and 50% POE. I do trust Elf, Shell and XOM because these companies to work very closely with these racing teams. Doesn't mean the others are not capable, but I do see some common denominator among the big companies. M1R was also mostly PAO.
Bottom line though is that Esters are not all that great for 4 stroke engines and that Group II+, III, and IV with a good add pack are every bit as good for some applications. Hasn't the analysis on BITOG shown that? I think so. Elf as you know is used in 4 F1 teams right now.
RL's racing oils might be all POE, but that is just a guess.
BTW, the guy is very nice and informative. I'd give Elf my business.
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Don't two-stroke engines use seals like four-stroke engines?
A two steoke crankcase is under vacuum(it is the intake path) unless it is a wet sump contained variant. Therefore the sealing mechansim would be less for containment of the lubricant. Or I am way off bas here
If we're talking about most two-stroke gasoline engines, there is no oil in the crankcase. The only oil that comes in contact with the seals is part of the atomized gas/oil mixture that gets pulled through the crankcase before entering the cylinders to be burned in the combustion chambers.
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And that little bit oil would not degrade the seals sufficiently to cause problems?
good to see another local guy here...
heard that PE actually binds to hot metal...is this true...or is that the Moly (speaking of Red Line Oil).
MolaKule
Staff member
See this thread:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000058
We did a seal study (and reported it here in BITOG but I can't find it) in which various type seals were soaked and heated in 100% POE and DI-esters, and found little change in seal characteristics.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000058
We did a seal study (and reported it here in BITOG but I can't find it) in which various type seals were soaked and heated in 100% POE and DI-esters, and found little change in seal characteristics.
MolaKule,
You looking for this Seal Study link?
Thread About Oils Conditioning Seals
Within this link is a link to a study Bob did with seals in jars of different oils, and how the oils did or did not clean the seals.
Hope this helps MolaKule.
Bill
You looking for this Seal Study link?
Thread About Oils Conditioning Seals
Within this link is a link to a study Bob did with seals in jars of different oils, and how the oils did or did not clean the seals.
Hope this helps MolaKule.
Bill
TEN?
wow
Originally Posted By: brianpavlovic
Can someone please clear this up for me! Which one is better? A PAO oil or an Ester based oil?
Yes
Can someone please clear this up for me! Which one is better? A PAO oil or an Ester based oil?
Yes
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