MolaKule
Staff member
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A lubricating oil composition for jet engines consisting essentially of a major portion of a synthetic base oil consisting of mono- and di-pentaerythritol esters of C.sub.5 to C.sub.10 straight and branched chain hydrocarbon monocarboxylic acid or mixtures thereof, from 4 to 8 weight percent of methyl phenyl silicone having a kinematic viscosity of 75 to 500 centistokes at 25.degree. C., from 0.5 to 5 weight percent of a phosphate antiwear agent, from 0.5 to 5 weight percent of a secondary aryl amine antioxidant and from 0.01 to 0.5 weight percent of 1,4-dihydroxy anthraquinone a metal deactivator.
This is a quote from a patent application. You attempted to rationalize that the additive chemistry in JTO was suitable for PCMO and showed a lack of undrstanding as to additives, types of additive, and their applications.
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MolaKule, here is a PDF on how to calculate engine temperature:
Thanks, but these powerpoint slides do not go into the detail as do my graduate texts.
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If the jet oil is thick enough to lubricate a turbine fan turning at 60K rpm while putting out over 100,000lb of thrust in extreme temperature then it is thick enough for a regular passenger car or truck. From 941848
This was the start of the original discussion. This shows a total lack of understanding regarding mechanical loading, types of bearings, and type of operation.
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Jet engine oil do not see combustion gases and this is why they last so long. 941855
You must forget what you say, since for the last two weeks you have trying to convince everyone they do.
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Actually 23699 oils contain 2-3% of TCP, which translates to about 0.2-0.3% of P. This is an anti-wear additive but not generally considered EP.
23699 oils are a 0W-10 grade and contain no detergents. They are great for the very high and low temperatures encountered in jet engines, but are not suitable for car engines. You might get away with adding a quart for a short cleaning run, but you would be diluting other critical additives and I would be somewhat concerned about the seals. I've had lots of access to these oils and never considered adding any to my car. 1387677
Other people have chimed in as well about this topic but it is your vehicle and they have stated it is an unnecessary risk.
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They don't come in contact with combustion gasses, sludge, etc. Turbine engine oils oil come in contact with roller and ball bearings, gears. One of its main functions is cooling.
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Where in the jet engine does the oil see the flame of combustion?
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BTW, jet oil do come into contact with combustion gases due to engine loosing its tolerances.
I never said I didn't understand the subject, I simply wanted you to prove your case, and in a properly running and maintained axial flow JT (original subject engine), it doesn't. What part of "flame of combustion" do you not understand?
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Concentrating on the sump/dry cavity area for a moment, how can this happen if a postive pressure in the dry cavity is greater than the sump pressure? The whole point of a differential pressure across the seals is to contain the the oil in the wet sump.
Still wating to see if you understand this point.
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At reverse thrust, the exhaust gas temperature from a JT9D turbofan exhaust nozzle with an intake air temp of 59 F, is around 400 F, and there will be a lot of turbulent mixing with the 59 F air as the air comes around to the Fan, so I seriously doubt the intake air temp to the fan or first stage compressor is 400 F.
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Let's try to stay on topic here. Using the JT9D as our basis for discussion, and using 59 F as the ambient temperature, the last HPC stage temp and the combustor inlet temp will be about 850 F, the flame temp out of the combustor will be 1970 F, the HP turbine inlet temp will be about 1900 F, the LP turbine inlet temp will be about 850F so the nozzle temp will be 400 F. Energy is extracted by the LP turbine so the temp drops across the LP turbine due to thermodynamic principles. So if the nozzle air temp is 400, there is no way the fan inlet temp can be 400 F after mixing. AGain, you are assuming that most if not all of the exhaust gasses get back to the fan stage.
The reason I chose the JT9D and the stated starting conditions was because the JT9D is a classic textbook example on the Thermodynamics of jet turbine propulsion and was used as an example to focus on the immediate topic at hand.
A lubricating oil composition for jet engines consisting essentially of a major portion of a synthetic base oil consisting of mono- and di-pentaerythritol esters of C.sub.5 to C.sub.10 straight and branched chain hydrocarbon monocarboxylic acid or mixtures thereof, from 4 to 8 weight percent of methyl phenyl silicone having a kinematic viscosity of 75 to 500 centistokes at 25.degree. C., from 0.5 to 5 weight percent of a phosphate antiwear agent, from 0.5 to 5 weight percent of a secondary aryl amine antioxidant and from 0.01 to 0.5 weight percent of 1,4-dihydroxy anthraquinone a metal deactivator.
This is a quote from a patent application. You attempted to rationalize that the additive chemistry in JTO was suitable for PCMO and showed a lack of undrstanding as to additives, types of additive, and their applications.
Quote:
MolaKule, here is a PDF on how to calculate engine temperature:
Thanks, but these powerpoint slides do not go into the detail as do my graduate texts.
Quote:
If the jet oil is thick enough to lubricate a turbine fan turning at 60K rpm while putting out over 100,000lb of thrust in extreme temperature then it is thick enough for a regular passenger car or truck. From 941848
This was the start of the original discussion. This shows a total lack of understanding regarding mechanical loading, types of bearings, and type of operation.
Quote:
Jet engine oil do not see combustion gases and this is why they last so long. 941855
You must forget what you say, since for the last two weeks you have trying to convince everyone they do.
Quote:
Actually 23699 oils contain 2-3% of TCP, which translates to about 0.2-0.3% of P. This is an anti-wear additive but not generally considered EP.
23699 oils are a 0W-10 grade and contain no detergents. They are great for the very high and low temperatures encountered in jet engines, but are not suitable for car engines. You might get away with adding a quart for a short cleaning run, but you would be diluting other critical additives and I would be somewhat concerned about the seals. I've had lots of access to these oils and never considered adding any to my car. 1387677
Other people have chimed in as well about this topic but it is your vehicle and they have stated it is an unnecessary risk.
Quote:
They don't come in contact with combustion gasses, sludge, etc. Turbine engine oils oil come in contact with roller and ball bearings, gears. One of its main functions is cooling.
Quote:
Where in the jet engine does the oil see the flame of combustion?
Quote:
BTW, jet oil do come into contact with combustion gases due to engine loosing its tolerances.
I never said I didn't understand the subject, I simply wanted you to prove your case, and in a properly running and maintained axial flow JT (original subject engine), it doesn't. What part of "flame of combustion" do you not understand?
Quote:
Concentrating on the sump/dry cavity area for a moment, how can this happen if a postive pressure in the dry cavity is greater than the sump pressure? The whole point of a differential pressure across the seals is to contain the the oil in the wet sump.
Still wating to see if you understand this point.
Quote:
At reverse thrust, the exhaust gas temperature from a JT9D turbofan exhaust nozzle with an intake air temp of 59 F, is around 400 F, and there will be a lot of turbulent mixing with the 59 F air as the air comes around to the Fan, so I seriously doubt the intake air temp to the fan or first stage compressor is 400 F.
Quote:
Let's try to stay on topic here. Using the JT9D as our basis for discussion, and using 59 F as the ambient temperature, the last HPC stage temp and the combustor inlet temp will be about 850 F, the flame temp out of the combustor will be 1970 F, the HP turbine inlet temp will be about 1900 F, the LP turbine inlet temp will be about 850F so the nozzle temp will be 400 F. Energy is extracted by the LP turbine so the temp drops across the LP turbine due to thermodynamic principles. So if the nozzle air temp is 400, there is no way the fan inlet temp can be 400 F after mixing. AGain, you are assuming that most if not all of the exhaust gasses get back to the fan stage.
The reason I chose the JT9D and the stated starting conditions was because the JT9D is a classic textbook example on the Thermodynamics of jet turbine propulsion and was used as an example to focus on the immediate topic at hand.
