Is it possible that Mobil 1's high iron......

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My point was that you can't conclude that one oil is better then another by micing and weighing parts from one engine run with one oil, and comparing that to a different engine run on a different oil, without measuring parts BEFORE the engines were even run to gauge percentage of wear. And both engines need to be run in identical conditions.

If there was a few cam lobes missing and a few bearings spun and chewed up, then yea, that's pretty definitive! But saying "oh, my LT1 had less wear then Billy's LT1" with no specifics; that's is meaningless IMO.

I don't take legitimately claims made by someone who draws conclusions based on a lot of variables, and scoffs at the concept of objective SAE testing.
 
Hi,
back to the topic of this Thread:
"Is it possible that Mobil 1's high iron......"

From Redline:

"Generally, more antiwear additives will give greater iron spectrochemical numbers, even though the total iron can be lower"
 
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
My point was that you can't conclude that one oil is better then another by micing and weighing parts from one engine run with one oil, and comparing that to a different engine run on a different oil, without measuring parts BEFORE the engines were even run to gauge percentage of wear. And both engines need to be run in identical conditions.

If there was a few cam lobes missing and a few bearings spun and chewed up, then yea, that's pretty definitive! But saying "oh, my LT1 had less wear then Billy's LT1" with no specifics; that's is meaningless IMO.

I don't take legitimately claims made by someone who draws conclusions based on a lot of variables, and scoffs at the concept of objective SAE testing.



No, but if he tears down his LT1, still has visible cross-hatching on the walls, and no scuffs on his skirts, and Billy has oval bores and skirts that look like they've been run for a season in somebody's circle-track stock-car I think at least some conclusions can be drawn.......
 
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
back to the topic of this Thread:
"Is it possible that Mobil 1's high iron......"

From Redline:

"Generally, more antiwear additives will give greater iron spectrochemical numbers, even though the total iron can be lower"



Those are fightin' words on BITOG Doug!
wink.gif
 
A comparison between using tracers to detect wear and UOAs, and another article on Fe in sludge, although from using biodiesel.

A UOA not detecting wear / failure would be a 'false negative', while I'm assuming that the higher Fe in M1 is a 'false positive', so to be fair it's a different issue. M1 is often observed to 'keep engines clean', so perhaps it's also good at keeping stuff suspended in oil instead of allowing it to develop as varnish or sludge.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/pp66225734334nk5/

Quantitative Filter Debris Analysis (QFDA) as a means of monitoring wear in oil-lubricated systems

Received: 21 December 1993

Abstract In this study, the trace analytical technique of instrumental neutron activation analysis (INAA), using the SLOWPOKE-2 Facility at RMC, was used to develop an application termed Quantitative Filter Debris Analysis (QFDA). The preliminary step, which consisted of the quantitative analysis of filter debris samples from CH-124 Sea King helicopter main gear boxes (MGB) for 19 elements associated with engine wear, confirmed that distinct ranges of normal and abnormal wear rates exist in the CH-124 MGB and, more importantly, validated the INAA procedures. The second step, which consisted of the analysis of both oil and filter debris samples from the CF-188 Hornet aircraft engine by the INAA technique and an Atomic Emission (AE) method, confirmed that little useful wear information can be found in the oil of a finely-filtered engine system and demonstrated the potential of QFDA as a means of monitoring wear by analyzing the oil filter debris. What appears to be normal wear rate ranges were identified for the CF-188 Hornet aircraft engine. The potential of monitoring the wear health of oil-lubricated systems using QFDA was confirmed by this investigation.


http://www.senternovem.nl/mmfiles/OperteardownB20eng_tcm24-187057.pdf

Sludge Analysis
Analyses were performed to identify the source of the sludge. These included elemental analysis by inductively coupled plasma atomic emission spectroscopy (ICP, via ASTM D4951), infrared spectroscopy (FTIR-ATR), and isotopic analysis by accelerator mass spectrometry (AMS).
Results of the elemental analyses allow comparison of elements present in the sludge with those present in the engine lubricant (Table 4). This analysis was conducted on the two sludge samples from the B20 engines and the engine oil samples from all four engines. Considering that the B20 engines operated on B20 for 4 years, ending in 2003, the engine oil samples would not be expected to exhibit effects from B20 but to be indicative of engine wear issues with other causes.
The engine oil typically contains calcium and/or magnesium from the detergent and zinc and phosphorus from the ZDDP anti-wear additive; all these metals were evident in the analysis. The sludge appeared to be enriched in calcium and zinc relative to the oils, with zinc and phosphorus present in roughly the correct proportions for ZDDP. Iron in the used oil samples was low, so wear problems were not evident. Iron was concentrated in the valve deck sludge, but these levels were also low and probably not indicative of a wear problem.
 
Hi,
OVERK1LL - Well I "get stick" because some BITOG people see me as a "one-eyed" Mobil person. If they could only read between the lines............................

It is not so long ago that M1 0W-40 was "trashed" repeatedly on here due to perceived "high" wear metal rates (ppm of course) and "serious" viscosity loss - in their perspective again

Well now, some years on, millions of engines and mega millions of miles covered and we don't see hundreds, thousands or millions of trashed engines anywhere due to M1 0W-40! No Warranty claims on millions of camshafts and valve train elements and etc either.
Not even with 2 year and 12k OCIs!

We had some people on here (and on Porsche Forums too) saying NOT to use lubricants that were Manufacturer Approved "...because the SM and or CJ-4 Quality standards were not good enough...." and etc etc. They "measured" the performance by back to back oil changes with different lubricants (Brands and types) and single pass UOAs!

If only it really was this easy!!!!!!

And as earlier commented by Redline:
"Generally, more antiwear additives will give greater iron spectrochemical numbers, even though the total iron can be lower"

Surely this comment must make people ponder as to why M1 has such a wide FF base around the World. Some engine Manufacturers have used it for decades and for many it is a mandatory Service fill too

The Manufacturers have no need to ponder their choice - their Warranty and service life history over many years tells the true story

Much more could be said on this subject too but it will be destroyed by emotion - after all don't let the facts stand in the way of a good story (or debate) is the practice of some Forum contributors

Keeping UOAs in perspective is very important

Trending UOAs within an engine family of identical metallurgy can tell a significant "story". They are indeed very useful here concerning some wear metals - but the trend database must be extensive and not contaminated. One or two engines over a year or two and 50k miles - forget it. Millions of miles over manay many engines - yes!

Take Porsche 911 engines - the variances in meatllurgy since 1964 are enormous and even within a MY. Unless you have accurate baselines UOAs as a wear predictor are simply an "interesting passtime"

Keeping UOAs in perspective is very important
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL


No, but if he tears down his LT1, still has visible cross-hatching on the walls, and no scuffs on his skirts, and Billy has oval bores and skirts that look like they've been run for a season in somebody's circle-track stock-car I think at least some conclusions can be drawn.......


Talk about hypotheticals......................












.
 
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary

why M1 has such a wide FF base around the World.


Hi,

Because they've engaged in BY FAR the largest advertising campaign of any oil manufacturer in the world?
 
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL


No, but if he tears down his LT1, still has visible cross-hatching on the walls, and no scuffs on his skirts, and Billy has oval bores and skirts that look like they've been run for a season in somebody's circle-track stock-car I think at least some conclusions can be drawn.......


Talk about hypotheticals......................












.


That I've witnessed first-hand. But hey, who cares right?
 
Some oils do certain things better than others. Oil analysis is limited in giving a complete wear profile. Other tools must be used to really get a good idea of what is going on with the engine/oil combo. Ferrography and tear downs are always used, but very expensive.

Mobil 1 seems to have issues when fuel is present. I don't know specifically what causes it, but it's something Terry does know about. It could be that the Fe is a chemical/corrosive type wear.

George Morrison, who recently passed away, said the Fe people are seeing is extremely small in size to the point that it's not truly Fe wear leaching. He thought of it as more of a chemical type/leaching wear. Fwiw.

Oil analysis is a great tool to use to monitor wear when a trend is used. Comparing oils using oil analysis can be misleading though. Formula One teams use oil analysis to monitor wear and oil condition.
 
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary

why M1 has such a wide FF base around the World.


Hi,

Because they've engaged in BY FAR the largest advertising campaign of any oil manufacturer in the world?





With that statement you must think companies like Porsche, Mercedes, Bentley, Saab, and many others are fools for falling for Mobil's ability to advertize worldwide. Their engineers develope new engines requiring new formules and XM is the company that can meet these new oil requirements. M1 sets the standard and the other oil producers follow their lead when they can.
 
When we're investigating problems and possible solutions at work that haven't yielded to on hand approaches it's common to start looking in the peer reviewed journals, although someimes suppliers will have a ready solution. Once potential problems are selected experiments with controls are used to determine effectiveness, as we don't want to make things worse.

Size of advertising budgets has basically nothing to do with what works best.

I don't recall the last time that I bought anything because of advertising.
 
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Keeping UOAs in perspective is very important

Trending UOAs within an engine family of identical metallurgy can tell a significant "story". They are indeed very useful here concerning some wear metals - but the trend database must be extensive and not contaminated. One or two engines over a year or two and 50k miles - forget it. Millions of miles over many many engines - yes!


Well said!
thumbsup2.gif


Tom NJ
 
Originally Posted By: tig1



With that statement you must think companies like Porsche, Mercedes, Bentley, Saab, and many others are fools for falling for Mobil's ability to advertize worldwide. Their engineers develope new engines requiring new formules and XM is the company that can meet these new oil requirements. M1 sets the standard and the other oil producers follow their lead when they can.


I never said companies are fools for using Mobil 1 as factory fill, but you can not deny that because Mobil 1 is far and away the most mass produced, heavily advertised synthetic motor oil, that that has nothing to do with companies using it as factory fill. I'm sure Exxon greases a few of the wheels of OEMs that use it as factory fill so they continue using it.
 
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: tig1



With that statement you must think companies like Porsche, Mercedes, Bentley, Saab, and many others are fools for falling for Mobil's ability to advertize worldwide. Their engineers develope new engines requiring new formules and XM is the company that can meet these new oil requirements. M1 sets the standard and the other oil producers follow their lead when they can.


I never said companies are fools for using Mobil 1 as factory fill, but you can not deny that because Mobil 1 is far and away the most mass produced, heavily advertised synthetic motor oil, that that has nothing to do with companies using it as factory fill. I'm sure Exxon greases a few of the wheels of OEMs that use it as factory fill so they continue using it.






No doubt XM has the resourses to promote their products world wide, but performance has to be there or no auto co. would endorse their oil to be used in their engines. Can you imagine the PR problem they would have if engines would fail because of oil. Remember Ford's black eye because of Firestone tires?
 
I thank the posters who made good posts in this thread. There is one poster here who I think would do us a favor by not continuing to detract from the quality of this thread.
 
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: tig1



With that statement you must think companies like Porsche, Mercedes, Bentley, Saab, and many others are fools for falling for Mobil's ability to advertize worldwide. Their engineers develope new engines requiring new formules and XM is the company that can meet these new oil requirements. M1 sets the standard and the other oil producers follow their lead when they can.


I never said companies are fools for using Mobil 1 as factory fill, but you can not deny that because Mobil 1 is far and away the most mass produced, heavily advertised synthetic motor oil, that that has nothing to do with companies using it as factory fill. I'm sure Exxon greases a few of the wheels of OEMs that use it as factory fill so they continue using it.

Actually I can't recall the last time I actually saw a commerical for Mobil 1 engine oil. I've seen plenty of advertisements on XOM trying to do stuff with natural gas and such, but I haven't seen a commercial for their oil in quite some time. . . Maybe last year?
 
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Originally Posted By: Nyquist
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: tig1



With that statement you must think companies like Porsche, Mercedes, Bentley, Saab, and many others are fools for falling for Mobil's ability to advertize worldwide. Their engineers develope new engines requiring new formules and XM is the company that can meet these new oil requirements. M1 sets the standard and the other oil producers follow their lead when they can.


I never said companies are fools for using Mobil 1 as factory fill, but you can not deny that because Mobil 1 is far and away the most mass produced, heavily advertised synthetic motor oil, that that has nothing to do with companies using it as factory fill. I'm sure Exxon greases a few of the wheels of OEMs that use it as factory fill so they continue using it.

Actually I can't recall the last time I actually saw a commerical for Mobil 1 engine oil. I've seen plenty of advertisements on XOM trying to do stuff with natural gas and such, but I haven't seen a commercial for their oil in quite some time. . . Maybe last year?




Good point. Maybe because of Ike and lack of PAO basestocks?
 
I'm thinking Ike, and possibly the Spring Time to launch their counter attack against all the negative press, and the adds attacking 5W30 Mobil 1.
 
You can disagree with me all day. Until you do anything approaching what I have done your dont have a leg to stand on. Now you are questioning my technique for measuring tolerances in an engine. Really....I have never claimed to be an "oil expert" or the know all of LT-1's. I have worked with quite a few and have seen some examples of oils out there that plainly do not work in this design. Like I stated earlier, UOA's are useful but I have seen where they tell a different story than what is actually going on inside of an engine.

Im waiting for your comeback of " so what you are saying is everyone should teardown there engine at 40,000......blah blah blah is all that is.......
 
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