New H-D Twin Cam 96. What oil?

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I'd like some advice/comments on oil for the new Road King.
Should I:
-use only synthetic oils like Red Line or Mobil 1 V-Twin?
-a group 3/PAO blend like M1 15w50?
-a dino/PAO blend like Schaeffer 7000?
-a conventional motorcycle oil like Pennzoil or Brad Penn V-2?

I ride 1500-2000 miles per month, so oil changes are frequent. I don't know that I'd get the full advantage of M1 V-Twin or Red Line (except for resistance to heat) unless I also went to extended OCIs. I'm not really comfortable going 5k on any oil, despite H-D's recommended interval.
FWIW, I have used the Schaeffer 7000 and M1 with complete satisfaction in EVO Sportsters. Right now, the RK only has 264 miles on it. I'm contemplating an oil change soon just to get those early wear metals out and will probably go with Rotella 15w40 since it's cheap and will get dumped soon anyway.
I welcome any comments or suggestions.
Thanks!
 
I have been using Mobil 1 V-Twin in my 2004 88" twincam since the 10000 mile mark and I am happy with it. I also don't feel comfortable with 5000 mile OCI's in an air cooled engine so I do 2500 miles with a filter change every 5000.

Just my two cents. Enjoy your new bike.
 
I use Amsoil MCV 20W50 in engine and primary. Amsoil SVT 75W110 in trans. I have lost no sleep with 5000 mile OCI.

I would also run short OCI while flushing out break in wear metals. I changed oil at 450 miles,1700 and 3200 miles on my 08 Ultra. At the 3200 mile oil change I switched to Amsoil. I have changed oil at 5000 miles ever since.
 
Personally I would go top shelf syn but you have to decide. These things will reach 250F to 275F plus on dino. The Group IVs and Group Vs tend to run cooler and have the stability to perform when run hot if it happens.

The SM dinos have become few and far between for good additive packages for these engines. I know 20W50 supposidly does not have to comply but it seem most have.

My 2 cents.

Dino, change all these at 2500 miles

Valvoline 20W50 Vtwin $3.50
Valvoline 20W50 VR-1 $3.50
Bardahl 20W50 Vtwin American Classic ($2.00 if bought by the case during Dennis Kirks clearance. A real steal and killer additive package - Best of the dinos)
Rotella 15W40 $3.00 a little light but people use it and like it.

Syn GIII/IV can go 5000 miles

M1 15W50 Silver cap. $5.00 if bought in the jug. Proven winner over the years even if it does have a lot of GIII now. Good additve package (1200 ppm ZDDP) and somehow SM rated.

Top shelf syns easily go 5000 miles

M1 Vtwin 20W50 $10.00, about 1600 ppm ZDDP
Amsoil MCV 20W50 $???
Red Line 20W50 or 20W60 ($9.00 / Qt. by the case mail order) Killer additive package, about equal to M1 Vtwin in ZDDP plus about 500 ppm Moly.

I've used nothing but Red Line in my newer bike (05) after several short runs of dino for break in.

My 94 has seen a lot of dino over the years but now gets M1 15W50 for the $5.00 / Qt. it's a good deal.

As for primary any low Moly motor oil, HD Formula +, or ATF

As for tranny, Red Line Heavy Shock Proof for me but a good gear oil will be just fine. Never used motor oil, never will.
 
All good oils but I wouldn't judge em purely on the zinc. If they also have high detergent numbers that doesn't allow the zinc to do it's job, they need lots of zinc to be balanced. For example the diesel oils. Probably no better protection than a balanced SM additive package with lower zinc and ca, without all the ash of the high tbn oil. Bikes don't need the ash, and their frequent service intervals don't really need the high TBN.
 
I'm thinking the guys that formulate know more than me. Red Line typically looks like this in a 20W50 with a polyol ester base. The 20W60 HD is specially formulated for this application. The main reason I like it is the temp stability inherent to the ester based oil.

Phos 1200
Zinc 1400
Moly 575
Calcium 3000
boron 50
Magnesium 150

Like I said they are smarter than me at this and their oils tend to kick hind for high temp applications like the air cooled Vtwins.
 
Originally Posted By: EagleFTE
I'm thinking the guys that formulate know more than me. Red Line typically looks like this in a 20W50 with a polyol ester base. The 20W60 HD is specially formulated for this application. The main reason I like it is the temp stability inherent to the ester based oil.

Phos 1200
Zinc 1400
Moly 575
Calcium 3000
boron 50
Magnesium 150

Like I said they are smarter than me at this and their oils tend to kick hind for high temp applications like the air cooled Vtwins.


+1 The TC96 is a heat generator for sure. I would only run high quality 20w50 or 20w60 synthetic. The Mobil One 15w50 will shear very quickly in that engine.
 
I just did the first oil change in my new TC96 and put in the same thing I used in my Sportster: Brad Penn's Penn Grade 1 20w50 syn blend.
 
EagleFTE spelled it all out very nicely...but, in that engine, like hd2002,I'd use Amsoil...become a dealer or preferred customer and it ain't that bad money wise...that's what I did...if you want me to hook you up just pm me...
 
I noticed you didn't mention any dino HDEO as an option in your list, but then mentioned Rotella in the text near the bottom of your post. Are you intending to use HDEO as a one time flush, and then "upgrade"? I would suggest that the HDEO is a fine fluid for continued use, all the time.

There is good evidence in UOAs that show 15w-40's perform quite well in bikes. You could reasonably go 5k miles on any decent brand name such as Rotella, Delvac, Delo, etc.

I personally think they are the under-rated "best-buy" of oil for motorcycles.

As always, UOAs would be your best guide. But there are several of us that can attest to HDEO in bikes, in all kinds of applications.
 
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Quote:
As always, UOAs would be your best guide. But there are several of us that can attest to HDEO in bikes, in all kinds of applications.

Yep!!
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I have been using Brad Penn's Penn Grade 1 20w50 syn blend in my 03 Softail and my 09 CVO 110.
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I noticed you didn't mention any dino HDEO as an option in your list, but then mentioned Rotella in the text near the bottom of your post. Are you intending to use HDEO as a one time flush, and then "upgrade"? I would suggest that the HDEO is a fine fluid for continued use, all the time.

There is good evidence in UOAs that show 15w-40's perform quite well in bikes. You could reasonably go 5k miles on any decent brand name such as Rotella, Delvac, Delo, etc.


For most bikes, I would agree with you. However, the TC96 runs very hot. Oil temps in the summer on 07 and 08 models reportedly get as high as 260F-280F. With those temps, I think at least a 20w50 syn blend is a must. I would not run a 15w40.

Harley finally wised up and realized that didn't have to run this engine right at 14.7:1 to meet the EPA specs, and the 09 TC96s are coming from the factory running a little richer, around 14.5:1 to 14.6:1. So the jury is still out until the summer on what kind of difference this will make in how hot the engines run, but it should cool things off some. Nevertheless, I'd still stick with a good 20w50 in the TC96.
 
If the concern is heat how much does it REALLY benefit to run a syn over a dino? For example one may have a 480 deg flashpoint, the other a 430. The oils runs at 300f? When exposed to the hot hot parts, upper ring lands may be 1000f for example, does that higher flash point really mean much? High temp oxidation, yes one basestock may be very slightly better, but isn't a modern additve package easily capable of dealing with it? In a simular grade the syn may have slightly less VII's, but not much more. The difference in OCI's based on viscosity shear has proven to be very simular using both oils. Not trying to spark a syn vs dino debate, just thinking out loud.
 
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Originally Posted By: wileyE
If the concern is heat how much does it REALLY benefit to run a syn over a dino? For example one may have a 480 deg flashpoint, the other a 430. The oils runs at 300f? When exposed to the hot hot parts, upper ring lands may be 1000f for example, does that higher flash point really mean much? High temp oxidation, yes one basestock may be very slightly better, but isn't a modern additve package easily capable of dealing with it? In a simular grade the syn may have slightly less VII's, but not much more. The difference in OCI's based on viscosity shear has proven to be very simular using both oils. Not trying to spark a syn vs dino debate, just thinking out loud.


The issue is oxidation. At sump temps over 250F, conventional oil is going to oxidize rapidly. A PAO based oil won't. Also, at those temps a 15w40 is going to be too thin for an engine designed to run on a 50 wt.
 
Knowing your inputs is a great way to predict what might happen. But results are the way to know what actually happened.

Knowing that PAO oils will survive the heat a bit better than a dino oil is a fairly well accepted concept; I agree with it. But I would suggest that actually running an HDEO and seeing UOAs will show what is actually going to happen, rather than what "might" happen. VOAs and base stocks are a great starting point, but UOAs provide an understanding of what did happen, not what might happen.

Dino HDEOs probably don't run any hotter in a TC96 than they do in today's turbo-diesel applications. After all, the turbo is driven by exhaust gasses, and EGTs can often get up to 1300 degF for short hard pulls uphill. How is that any differnet than the Harley engine? Heat exposure is heat exposure.

There are two risks regarding heat. One is instantaneous exposure (immediate coking, etc), and one it long term exposure (oxidation/evaporation). You really can't argue that a TC96 has any more potential to coke the oil than does a turbocharger on a diesel engine. I would suspet the temp at the head/upper cylinder of the TC96 isn't any hotter than the heat at the turbo under a load. So in my mind, coking isn't an issue, as dino fluids handle this quite well. So, what about oxidation/evaporation? Well dino HDEOs handle this quite well, too. In fact, people often freak out when their engine "uses oil" by the process of evaporation. So what?!?! Check your oil level once in a while, and top off the fluid! You just replenished your additive package! Big deal. Small amounts of oxidation/evaporation are normal, and don't effect engine life.

My point is that a dino HDEO will perform quite well in the TC96, if you give it a chance. Will it do as well as a top-dollar PAO? Maybe not. But at 5k mile OCIs, and at half the price (or less!) than the expensive PAO-motorcycle-specific oils, the HDEO dinos certainly are worth a look!

Further, let's consider the useage factor of a Harley. It's likely not a daily transport; it's a joy ride. I know; I ride too. Did you know that the average annual mileage of the industry for all on-road bikes is less than 2k miles a year! Sure, there are some of us that go much farther. I ride about 10k miles a year. Some ride more than I do. But let's run some math here. Say you are a hard core rider, and do 15K miles a year. It would take 10 years just to get 150k miles on your bike. And the build quality of today's bikes (all brands) has improved just as much as today's cars and trucks. I suspect that bikes are discarded LONG, LONG before they are "used up". So, what's the likely hood that a Harley is going to experience such high mileage in the first place?

Harley riders, in particular, often want to baby their "baby". They will buy the "best that money can buy" regarding oil, filters, storage tarps, cleaning wipes, gloves, leathers, blah blah blah. Hey - that's great; this is a free-market society after all. But don't try to convince me that $8/qt PAO is NECESSARY to make the Harly run. If you WANT to spend that, go right ahead. But considering the reality that most Harleys odometers will NEVER see 50k miles, PAOs are likely overkill for nearly all applications.

I'm not saying that a dino HDEO would perform "better" than a PAO high dollar oil. In fact, I'll admit that PAOs are likely to do "better". But, I am saying that at 5k mile OCIs, you won't get anywhere near a proportionate amount of "protection" for your money. If you spent $8/qt for PAO-motorcycle specific oil, would you get 4 times the "protection" over $2/qt dino HDEO? Would your UOA show 4x less wear metals, 4x less soot, 4x less insolubles using PAO vs. HDEO? I think not! (BTW - some would challenge the ratio of 4:1 but here's where I came up with that. Dino HDEOs are common, and can still be found on sale if you're savy. Delvac 1300 was on sale with rebate for $7/gallon just last fall. Try and find PAO-motorcycle-specific "on sale" anywhere! It's about $8/qrt no matter what brand or store you see it at. The marketing/sales folks know that people who "want" MC-PAO oil will pay for it; they are a captive audience!).

Here's a thought. Run a few UOAs each way and see for yourself. I have my opinion; others have theirs. Why not remove all doubt, and see for youself. Let the UOAs be your guide, not rhetoric.
 
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Ok..here's a thought...Diesel motors have a hot turbo but they also hold 14/15 qts of oil. HD only has 3/4 qts. Now, run all day in 80° plus weather and then do a UOA......
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Originally Posted By: SKUNKY
Ok..here's a thought...Diesel motors have a hot turbo but they also hold 14/15 qts of oil. HD only has 3/4 qts. Now, run all day in 80° plus weather and then do a UOA......
banana2.gif



Well, Harleys actually hold around 3/4 of a gallon, not 3/4 of a quart, but you're right on point. You can't really compare a big rig oil environment (even if we're talking turbocharging), and an oil capacity of several gallons, with the punishment an air cooled TC96 puts an oil through.
 
Stick with the recommended 20/50.

Why do some suggest the wrong viscosity? HDEO is $4.00 a quart and the wrong viscosity for this application. How is this a good deal? Lots of proper dino choices in that price range.
 
You guys might want to consider some math, with proper ratios.

Examples:
My old 3.0L Nissan Frontier gasser had 3.0L (182 cu in) v-6 with 3.5 qts oil. That's 52 cu in /qt of oil.
My wife's 3.0L gasser (182 cu in) v-6 has 4 qts oil. That's 45 cu in/qt.
My 6.6L Dmax turbo diesel (400 cu in) has 10 qts oil. That's 40 cu in/qt.
The HD 96TC has 96 cu in and 3 qts oil? That's 32 cu in/qt.

Overall, your HD Twin Cam has less engine displacement/qt than these three examples. In theory, you have the best scenario of these four examples. That kind of negates your argument of engine displacment vs. sump capacity.
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So, ambienet air temp is your concern? OK - let me let you in on a little secret. Harley-Davidson has a few items in the parts catalog that might help you out. They have some fairly nice (and also very expensive) oil coolers. One cooler even has a thermostat in it, to help regulate the oil flow through the cooler. That way, it helps out when it's hot outside air temps, but diverts the oil around the cooler if it's cold outside air temps.
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Hopefully, some of the HD faithfull can squeez a functional part (such as the cooler) into the budget, along with the 17 pieces of "Live to ride, ride to live" chrome ...
 
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