Increased lead with Schaeffer 9000?

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I just got my second UOA on Schaeffer 9000 on my 2004 F250 6.0L with 40,000 miles and on both reports, lead has jumped up. It went from 1-2 ppm that I was previously getting with Motorcraft 15W-40, up to 10 and 18 ppm on the two Schaeffer cycles (5200 and 4200 miles respectively). Iron is at 21 and 18, which is about where it was with the 15W-40, but the lead concerns me somewhat.

I don't think this is a case of accumulating lead, given the 20% shorter second interval vs. the 180% increase in lead. Both Schaeffer cycles did have more towing on them than usual (for me), so that may partly explain it, but I'm still puzzled why lead would increase by a factor of 10+ using high quality synthetic from where it was previously using dino. I'm also puzzled why copper and tin have not budged from 4 and 0, respectively, while lead is increasing. Surely there aren't solid lead bearings in these engines, are there? Any ideas?
 
Did you increase the amount of fuel additive from what you normally use? Did you increase the dosage of fuel additve when you fueled?
Sometimes high lead comes from fuel additive, especially if none of the other wear metals support that.
I don't know the season of your runs so that's why I asked.
Perhaps you used a lot of additive for gelling reasons.
 
OK, now I understand. Most of the time I don't use any fuel additive, but in winter I sometimes use PowerService (white bottle) if we get a cold spell or I'm traveling northward. The first run was from December to August, and the second run was from August to January.

I do use biodiesel regularly, usually B5 to B10. Don't see how that would affect it, though.
 
Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
Doug, are you a professional tribologist?
If you want to pick a fight with him, it would be better to send him a private message out of respect for others. That way, no thread hijacking is done and no unpleasantness is seen on the forums.
 
OK here's the report. The last two runs are Schaeffers. The previous two are Motorcraft 15W-40. (now if i can just figure how to get pictures to post....)


schaeffersUOA.jpg


voila!
 
JAG, I cannot send private messages. That has been turned off by the administrators.

My point is that Doug is offering definitive opinions is if he is a professional tribologist. If I don't challenge him, who will. He's got everyone the forum bowing to his every statement and proclamation.

moeb is right to be concerned. A positive increase in Pb has a cause. This change is significantly outside the margin of error of Blackstones ICP equipment, and should not be disregarded. A professional should take a look at these analysis results and offer an informed opinion on this engine.
 
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I agree that the lead issue should be looked into or at least watched carefully. I have my theory but can't be sure of it. I think this oil formulation is dissolving some of the lead in the engine. If it continues, I'd change the oil choice. It may settle out on its own and if so, not much harm was done.
 
It's cool, all opinions welcome. It is the internet, after all.
wink.gif


The first time the lead rose, the Blackstone tech said maybe it was a particle streak, but since it's still going up that seems less likely. I'm also puzzled that other metals are not rising proportionately. I just assumed they would if it was a bearing issue. I've seen other users report lead increases using this oil, so I thought maybe someone might have come up with some theories as to why. I know it could be a different reason for every user, but wth, no harm in asking.
 
I'd watch it. If this was a gasoline vehicle, I would guess maybe from a fuel additive. But at this point we can only speculate that the oil is chelating the lead, in perhaps a non-harmful way. IOW, the lead was always there with the other oils, just not in solution - and not showing up in a UOA.
 
Moly compounds can act aggressive towards lead and/or copper especially when used in diesel engines. It doesn't have to since it depends on the specific moly compound, the oil whole formulation, and the engine environment. One additive manufacturer (R.T. Vanderbilt) actually recommends against the use of some of the moly additives in diesel engines. Metal deactivators can help prevent this. FWIW, Delo 400 had a high moly level in the CI-4+ version and I don't recall it having lead or copper issues. I'm not saying this is what's going on here. It's just one possibility.
 
Esters typically. Some esters are great chelating agents. Mind you, my post is speculation based on observation. I observe that some ester based oils such as Redline will show relatively higher lead in UOA's, especially at first. We don't know this to be the case here, just chatting.

Schaeffer 9000 not sure how much ester, but some. But again it depends on which esters. Some oils with esters don't show the lead sig.......the question to ask sales rep is perhaps if the formula changed, approx % ester, etc.
 
Interesting thoughts, guys, thanks. I appreciate your speculations. Can I assume that if this is a chelating process going on here, the lead will level off at some point? I still have 9000 in the engine right now, so I guess I'll wait and see what the next UOA shows. I was planning to try Schaeffer's 7000 this summer anyway (I have 2 cases already) then refill with 9000 next fall, but if the 7000 does OK, maybe I'll just use that year-round.
 
Originally Posted By: Steve S
Has Schaeffers 9000 showed increased lead in other uoas?


I've read such, yes.
 
Originally Posted By: Steve S
Has Schaeffers 9000 showed increased lead in other uoas?


Yes. I have a 2006 6.0l Powerstroke too. I know of 4 people now that are experiencing the same thing with the same engines/oil!

I've been using Schaeffer's 9000 for about 30,000 miles. I change it at about 5-6,000 miles. My last 2 analysis have come back with much higher lead too. Was 2 now 15.

Something has changed in the Schaeffer's formula.
I switched back to Shell Rotella T 5W-40 CJ. Hopefully my wear numbers will come back down.

I've had good luck with the Shell 5W-40, it is not as sheer resistant as the Schaeffer's though. Maybe the CJ version will be better.
 
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