I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage

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427Z06, I guess that is why I am sticking with xw-20, because all of my receipts have shown the grade and I do not want a loophole letting the stealership off of warranty work if it is needed.
 
One could also buy a 24 qt case of 5w20 for the best price you can find, keep the receipt and give the oil to a church, non-profit organization, or a poor family in the neighborhood that has a Ford or Honda that could utilize it.
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I'll reply to one item at time...the Ford TSB on using 5w20 excluded certain vehicles from using 5w20:

Table 2. Recommended 2001 Ford engines/vehicles for SAE 5W-30 oil (in order of increasing displacement)
2.5-L Ranger
3.3-L Villager
3.9-L Lincoln LS
4.0-L Ranger, Explorer/Mountaineer, Explorer Sport, Explorer Sport Trac
5.0-L Explorer/Mountaineer

In that list are some of the most popular vehicles in Ford's offerings. The Explorer is probably the best selling SUV in the US, considering sales over the years, and being an evil gas hog SUV it would be in good interest for Ford to improve it's mileage. It's certain that either Ford tested it, or didn't bother because they know that the 5w20 wouldn't offer the same protection. Looking at a portion of the 2004 Explorer manual below, for NZ and AU, the V6 is still shipped with 5w30. In addition, although the V8 is shupped with 5w20, Ford recommends 5w30 for NZ and AU. Why is this ? Is it because 5w20 provides so much protection compared to 5w30 that the engine would never wear out, and Ford would go broke as they wouldn't sell any new vehicles ? Or is it because 5w20 does not offer the same protection as 5w30 ? The answer is obvious, but evidently impossible for 5w20 advocates to acknowledge.


https://web.msslib.dealerconnection...tent/myfile.pdf?DMW_OBJECTID=09000c58803bc601

Engine oil and filter recommendations

Engine oil with a viscosity grade of SAE 5W-30 (4.0L V6 engine) or SAE 5W-20 (4.6L V8 engine) provides the best engine performance, fuel economy and engine protection for all climates......

Engine oil and filter recommendations for 4.0L V6 engine

For 4.0L V6 engine, Ford specification is: WSS-M2C153–G.

Engine oil and filter recommendations for 4.6L V8 engine
Your engine has been factory fitted with SAE 5W-20 ILSAC-GF3 engine oil, which meets Ford specification WSS-M2C153–H

The recommended oil for service fill in Australia and New Zealand is SAE 5W-30 ILSAC-GF2 engine oil, which meets Ford specification WSS-M2C910–A1. If this oil is not

readily available then SAE 10W-30 ILSAC-GF2 engine oil, which meet Ford specification WSS-M2C910–A2 may be used.
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quote:

Originally posted by m6scargo:
Also wouldn't oil pumps have to be modified to account for the lack of viscosity?

From "DAMAGE CAUSED BY IMPROPER MAINTENANCE (2001 Warranty and Policy Manual Section 3-4, Pg 77)" as posted in a link somewhere on this site (but for the life of me I can't find that post
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), anyway, it said:
quote:

Q. Why is 5W-20 not ready for all the 2001 Ford products, just some? Why can't we use the 5W-20 in the ranger 4.0L?

A: Some of our carryover Engine Designs are not yet completed with 5W-20. For instance, the 4.0L engine's oil pump must be redesigned for more oil flow before 5W-20 can be used. As we change engine designs, we will recommend 5W-20. Some engine designs will never be able to accommodate 5W-20.

As for the thread topic question, the manual states:
quote:

Q. What if a fleet wants to use 10W-30 instead of 5W-20, is that problem?

A: If these are gasoline engines, a 10W-30 is okay. However, why wouldn't they want to take advantage of the fuel economy savings and superior engine protection of a 5W-20. Remind them that 10W-30 is two oil generations old.

But when they say 5w20 is better than 10w30 they are comparing apples (blend) to oranges (dino):
quote:

Q. Why did we change to 5W-20? What was wrong with 10W-40, 10W-30 etc?

A: 10W-30 and 10W-40 are old technology. We introduced 5W-20 to take advantage of new technology in the industry to provide improved fuel economy, low emissions, and better engine protection.

And the cure for that is to buy quality 10w30, maybe a Group III. So the only superior thing about the 5w20 appears to be that it is well formulated-(better engine protection, but for being too thin (IMHO
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)

And while I'm on a roll here, look at this:
quote:

Q. Were engine designs modified to run this new grade of oil?
A. Some bearing designs were optimized to take advantage of the new oil. New engines will be designed to take advantage of 5W-20.

I think what they really are saying is that some bearing designs had to be revised to prevent these engines from being destroyed by this thin, but CAFE-fine-reducing oil.

OK, so I am a thick head! Well not really, most of my stash is 10w30.
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[ April 22, 2005, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: TallPaul ]
 
Hey, this makes the Mobil 1 30wts more attractive.
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I'll take my 10w-30 10.5 cSt HT/HS 3.2 Mobil 1.
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The technology was available 25 years ago. The first M1 was 5W-20. I don't accept Ford's explanation. I believe it is CAFE plain and simple.

Each of us is free to make our picks
But as for me it's 3.6
 
To keep the oem mfg happy, why not just do 5w-20 for winter at the dealer and alternate with something like Xw-30 M1 for summer...without telling them. You are allowed long ocis with 20 weights anyway.

Thorn, where are you in NEPA? I am south of White Haven.
 
My pick is based on oil analysis, engine design, climate, driving conditions, owner's manual and quality of oil.
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[ April 22, 2005, 10:55 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by 1sttruck:
I'll reply to one item at time...the Ford TSB on using 5w20 excluded certain vehicles from using 5w20:

Table 2. Recommended 2001 Ford engines/vehicles for SAE 5W-30 oil (in order of increasing displacement)
2.5-L Ranger
3.3-L Villager
3.9-L Lincoln LS
4.0-L Ranger, Explorer/Mountaineer, Explorer Sport, Explorer Sport Trac
5.0-L Explorer/Mountaineer


This is simple. These are old engine designs!!! They may of been bored/stroked, fuel injection added, etc, but some of these engines were originally designed over 40 years ago.

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I really hate to beat a dead horse, and I don't have the technical expertise to keep up with you guys on this topic. What I do have, though, is a 2004 Honda Pilot that will soon be due for an oil change.

What should I use that I can buy "over-the counter". The 5w20 supporters mention Redline as the only 5w20 with a strong HTHS rating, but I'm looking for something that is a little less costly and easier to get my hands on. Are there any other 5w20 alternatives with a strong HTHS?

The Xw30 guys also seem to like oils such as GC that aren't redaily available either in my area (I tried local AZs). Other Xw30 oils that are readily available don't seem to have such great HTHS ratings either.

What should I use that will be relativley easy to find and provide good protection?
 
Thorn...How about the Havoline 5W20? It has been shown that Havolina makes very good dino products, so their 5W20 should be a strong contender as well. The Product Data sheet from the Chevron website does not have HTHS numbers, but the Viscosity Index is 148. Havoline 5W20 should be available almost everywhere.

Just a thought....no data or experience with the product in Honda engines to back it up.
 
quote:

What should I use that I can buy "over-the counter". The 5w20 supporters mention Redline as the only 5w20 with a strong HTHS rating, but I'm looking for something that is a little less costly and easier to get my hands on. Are there any other 5w20 alternatives with a strong HTHS?

The best $bargain 5W-20 oils is IMO Exxon Superflo 5W-20. It is a high moly content oil which appears to be identical to the Honda branded 5W-20 sold at the dealer. The few posted UOAs with it in Hondas have been great. You can often buy it on sale for around $1.25-$1.50 per quart. There is also a rebate on case quantities available from the Exxon website.

John
 
427Z06 said "These are old engine designs!!! They may of been bored/stroked, fuel injection added, etc, but some of these engines were originally designed over 40 years ago."

It doesn't matter how old the designs are or where they were designed, the only thing that matters is that they are proof that 5w20 does not offer the same protection as 5w30; if it did Ford would have spec'd them to use 5w20, since it doesn't they don't. Additional proof is that Ford will also recommend 5w30 outside of the US even though the vehicle may have been shipped with 5w20. Note that the 5w20 is a synthetic blend while the 5w30 is dino.
 
quote:

Originally posted by 1sttruck:
It doesn't matter how old the designs are or where they were designed, the only thing that matters is that they are proof that 5w20 does not offer the same protection as 5w30; if it did Ford would have spec'd them to use 5w20, since it doesn't they don't. Additional proof is that Ford will also recommend 5w30 outside of the US even though the vehicle may have been shipped with 5w20. Note that the 5w20 is a synthetic blend while the 5w30 is dino.

Hogwash. You proved nothing. Look at one of the designs. You have a main gallery feeding grooves in the camshaft bearings, which in turn feed the main bearings, which then have to feed the rod bearings. Oil off the main gallery feeds the lifters which then have to send oil up push-rods to the valve-train. There is so many areas where the oil can leak out, unless you significantly increase the pump volume, sump volume, etc, then Val/Ver it under numerous scenarios to insure against oil starvation, etc, you may as well stick with the higher viscosity oil since the engine is being phased out anyway.

And as far as being shipped with 5w20 and allowing 5w30 only indicates that it really doesn't matter either way, not that one is better than the other.

[ April 23, 2005, 03:38 AM: Message edited by: 427Z06 ]
 
Both honda and ford have stated that the life expectancy of their engines will be less with 5-20. Mercedes has gone to 5-40 instead of 10-30.
 
quote:

Originally posted by babydoggy:
Both honda and ford have stated that the life expectancy of their engines will be less with 5-20.

If you have a "copy" of that statement from the car makers I would love to see it.
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427Z06 said "Hogwash. You proved nothing. Look at one of the designs...you may as well stick with the higher viscosity oil since the engine is being phased out anyway....And as far as being shipped with 5w20 and allowing 5w30 only indicates that it really doesn't matter either way, not that one is better than the other."

When you suggest that design is the reason that 5w30 needs to be used, and Ford evidently 're-designs' a 5w30 only engine to use 5w20, fills it with 5w20 in the US, and then recommends 5w30 in NZ and AU, you try to waffle by saying 'it really doesn't matter'. Ford doesn't 'allow' 5w30, they recommend 5w30 outside of the US.

If it were design then the apparent design change to allow using 5w20 would have eliminated the requiremnt to use 5w30, but it's not design, it's CAFE, which is why 5w30 was recommended outside of the US.

'5w20 provides the same protection as 5w30' means that 5w20 can be used in place of 5w30. If it can't then it doesn't, regardless of reason. If using 5w20 requires a design change it's further proof that it does not provide the same protection as 5w30.
 
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