Calling all Ford 4.6 engine owners

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Picked up a 97 Cougar with the 4.6 and 120K miles, the sweet Anniversary edition, near mint condition cosmetically, but blowing some oil smoke out the exhaust. I am an engine man so no problem, get a low mileage all aluminum version with the better heads, spend about 40 hours grinding, tweeking, blueprinting, and go hotrodding ;-)

Took off the throttle body to give a good cleaning as need this current engine to go another year, lo and behold the oil soaked intake from the PCV about made me puke.

Did some deep research and learned the bigtime engineering mistake Ford made.

The 4.6 uses overhead cams with long a$$ timing chains to each head and cam from the crank. The passenger side head gets completely oil soaked as the timing chain acts as a conveyor belt pumping fresh oil from the crank to the top of the head, the drivers side the chain is going the wrong direction to cause this. The passenger side head has drainback holes leading down to the spinning crankshaft that also get blocked from below do to the direction of the oil windage from the crankshaft, drivers side head not affected.

In the end the passenger head only fills up with oil that has trouble draining back, to the point it covers the valve springs, valve seals, etc.

The higher the RPM, the worse the problem.

BUT - THE THICKER THE OIL THE WORSE THE PROBLEM TOO

Someone deep into the racing curve (I.E. they are hauling *** quicker before most others) posted that the thicker oils in this motor had more aeration problems, I didn't believe it at first, but now I understand with the passenger side problem. An oil lake around a bunch of valve springs at RPM is like whipping up some egg whites.

The 4.6 uses some tight main bearing clearances compared to old school stuff from day one, so can use thinner oil.

The cam bores in the heads are just cut into the aluminum, read need thinner oil so that it gets pumped up to the cam in the head ASAP!

All of the above reasons point to the XW20 oil being speced now by Ford even retroactively. I have no worries switching to it myself now.

The PCV problem is more prevalent to the 4.6 motors that have the PCV on the passenger side, I think some models are driver side mounted.

A fix for the PCV valve is to get an oil/water seperator for an air compressor, costs about $12 from Walmart. Plumb it inline, and watch the oil accumulate. Drain of course once about 1/2" full. Could be used on any engine with PCV I imagine, the 3 cars I tested now all get oil into the seperator.

PS - Could Ford have designed a harder oil filter to install than a 4.6 on these cars? The **** thing has about 0.0000001" of clearance to get around the frickin sway bar. I will dump the oil hot, but that filter ain't coming out unless the motor is ice cold again.
 
I assume my wife's 4.6L Expedition suffers from the same PCV problem, since my intake is also coated with oily "goo". The EGR passages in the intake are clogged with this "goo", resulting in a persistent EGR-related CEL. But at least the oil filter is a breeze to get on & off. No clearance issues on the Expy.
smile.gif


I've got a question, though. My Expedition has the PCV on the passengers side, but it also has something in this drivers side valve cover with a hose that connects to the bottom of the big black plastic air intake hose that connects to the throttle body. Is that another PCV, or do the fumes/oil from the drivers side valve cover simply get "vented" back into the intake?

If this question makes no sense, I can post a pic.
 
quote:

Originally posted by wavinwayne:
I assume my wife's 4.6L Expedition suffers from the same PCV problem, since my intake is also coated with oily "goo". The EGR passages in the intake are clogged with this "goo", resulting in a persistent EGR-related CEL. But at least the oil filter is a breeze to get on & off. No clearance issues on the Expy.
smile.gif


I've got a question, though. My Expedition has the PCV on the passengers side, but it also has something in this drivers side valve cover with a hose that connects to the bottom of the big black plastic air intake hose that connects to the throttle body. Is that another PCV, or do the fumes/oil from the drivers side valve cover simply get "vented" back into the intake?

If this question makes no sense, I can post a pic.


You are correct that it is just a vent, no valve inside at all, 99.99% of automotive engines are designed this way.

The PCV sucks the air from the crankcase, if the engine is super tight (like my 440) you can actually feel a slight vacuum at idle on this vent.

Now when the pedal is on the floor, there is no vacuum on the PCV, so it is not used at this point. Now if the crankcase still needs to vent, it goes out this tube and into the path of the air going into the engine to be burned in combustion.

If you find alot of oil residue on this vent tube, you have a very worn engine for sure.

If your engine has a broken ring land from detonation (common failure actually), then you will be blowing some serious air out of this tube.

I have used oil filters as oil catches for this tube on super worn engines also, just plumb with 5/8" hose typically. Nothing worse than fresh raw oil going into the carb/throttle body.
 
quote:

Originally posted by medic:
WW, I just have one thing to add. I doubt it had anything to do with the the problem being discussed, but its just a bit of info instead.

In '97 (any maybe other years) Ford used 2 different 4.6 engines in the F150's and Expy's. One was the Romeo engine (280 cid) and the other was the Windsor enigne (281 cid). From what I understand, the windsor was the better of the two. I also understand that only the trucks and SUVs recieved the windsor engines. All cars (mustangs, crown vics, cougars, etc...) recieved the romeo engine.

One way to tell which one you have it by checking the VIN.

Another way (I am only 99% sure on this one) is by oil filter placement. If the oil filter is behind the bumper, you have the windsor engine. If the filter is on the side of the block above the driver side tire, then you have the romeo engine.


Actually all Mustang GTs from 1999 until some time very early in 2001 used the Windsor. I happen to have a later model 2001 that has the Romeo motor. Both have their pros and cons but, the Windsor having been designed primarily as a truck motor was the stronger of the two. The VIN won't tell you what you have. Look on the cam covers, there is a sticker placed their by the factory that is the most reliable method to tell you which motor you have. For example, my cam covers have a sticker that says REP for Romeo Engine Plant, the Windsor motors will have stickers that say Windsor. You can also count the bolts on the cam covers, Windsor has 13 and Romeo has 11. You can also crawl around under the vehicle and look at the block on the drivers side above the oil pan and look for a big W, if you find it that is a Windsor. There are other methods as well.

[ April 12, 2005, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: Bobio ]
 
I've got the Windsor. The drivers side valve cover has a big sticker that says "Windsor engine plant" or something to that effect.
 
From what I learned Romeo or Windsor neither is stronger or lasts longer, just different, but still the same. They both have the same bore and stroke so they both have the same CID of 281.

They have different numbers on the valve cover bolts is a sure spotter, best way to identify.

The stock bolt on oil filter adaptor is different on different models, some do go waaaaaaaay back.

I can't believe Ford did this Romeo and Windsor crap though, this is worse than the 351 Cleveland, 351 Windsor, 351 Modified, 351 Boss, monster problems. Or even the 427, 428, and 429 option in 1968. There are a bazzilion different versions of the 4.6 block and timing covers (AOD mount or other, iron or aluminum, Italian or American, 4.6 or 5.4) A bazzilion different heads (NPI, PI, 3 valve, 4 valve, tumble port) I even saw where the Romeo and Windsor intake gaskets are the same, expect the mounting tabs are in different places, thus keeping them from being used vice versa! Ford - W - T - F - were you thinking?!?!?!?!?!
 
On a 97 F150 the 8th character in the VIN will tell you what engine you have. If you have a 4.6, you will either see a W or a 6. The 6 is the Romeo enigne and the W is the Windsor enigne.

Also, in this particular year of F150, the romeo is a 280 cid while the windsor is a 281 cid. In 1998, both the romeo and the windsor were 281 cid.

If you go to the parts store and look in any filter book, you will see this.
 
quote:

Originally posted by medic:
On a 97 F150 the 8th character in the VIN will tell you what engine you have. If you have a 4.6, you will either see a W or a 6. The 6 is the Romeo enigne and the W is the Windsor enigne.

I think that's wrong. If you have a W it's a Romeo engine and 6 is a Windsor. It's one of Ford's cruel jokes. From what I read the Windsor engine seems a bit stronger in construction. But those engines are more prone to the head gasket oil leak. In the long run who knows how long each will last. I have an ALL aluminum 4.6 in my 2002 F-150 made in Romeo with a W in the vin #. I really hope it lasts
banghead.gif
!

Whimsey
 
quote:

Originally posted by Whimsey:

quote:

Originally posted by medic:
On a 97 F150 the 8th character in the VIN will tell you what engine you have. If you have a 4.6, you will either see a W or a 6. The 6 is the Romeo enigne and the W is the Windsor enigne.

I think that's wrong. If you have a W it's a Romeo engine and 6 is a Windsor. It's one of Ford's cruel jokes. From what I read the Windsor engine seems a bit stronger in construction. But those engines are more prone to the head gasket oil leak. In the long run who knows how long each will last. I have an ALL aluminum 4.6 in my 2002 F-150 made in Romeo with a W in the vin #. I really hope it lasts
banghead.gif
!

Whimsey


On the Mustang you can't tell from the VIN but, guess the F150 is different. Here are the codes from an article on http://www.fordf150.net/howto/decodevin.php

A — 2.3L EFI, four cylinder (Ranger 1997 and older)
6 — 4.6L EFI-SOHC (Windsor), eight cylinder (Econoline, F-150, F-250)
W — 4.6L EFI-SOHC, eight cylinder (F-150, F-250)
L — 5.4L EFI-SOHC, eight cylinder (Econoline, F-150, F-250)
S — 6.8L EFI-SOHC, ten cylinder (Econoline)
F — 7.3L Turbo-Diesel, eight cylinder (Econoline)
2 — 4.2L EFI-OHV, six cylinder (Econoline, F-150, F-250)
Z — 5.4L SOHC, gaseous fuel prep, eight cylinder (Econoline, F-150, F-250)
M — 5.4L SOHC natural gas, eight cylinder (Econoline, F-150, F-250)
X — 4.0L EFI-OHV, six cylinder (Explorer, Ranger)
E — 4.0L EFI-SOHC, six cylinder (Explorer, Mountaineer)
P — 5.0L EFI, eight cylinder (Explorer/Mountaineer)
B — 2.5L OHV-DI diesel, four cylinder (Ranger)
C — 2.5L EFI-SOHC, four cylinder (Ranger)
U — 3.0L, six cylinder (Ranger)
 
It is really foolish engineering and manufacturing practice to build different engine designs in different factories and then mix-n-match them in vehicle production. It is hard to believe that Ford carried on such foolishness in modern times.

John
 
quote:

Originally posted by medic:
Also, in this particular year of F150, the romeo is a 280 cid while the windsor is a 281 cid. In 1998, both the romeo and the windsor were 281 cid.

If you go to the parts store and look in any filter book, you will see this.


Call it "creative rounding", like how a 5.0L Ford should actually rounded to a 4.9L (5.0 sounds better, and I think the truck 300 was already called a 4.9L?)

They did not change the bore or stroke of any 4.6L, so they in actuality are all 281 cubic inches. 3.552" bore, 3.543" stroke.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Whimsey:

quote:

Originally posted by medic:
On a 97 F150 the 8th character in the VIN will tell you what engine you have. If you have a 4.6, you will either see a W or a 6. The 6 is the Romeo enigne and the W is the Windsor enigne.

I think that's wrong. If you have a W it's a Romeo engine and 6 is a Windsor.


Yep, I think I did get it backwards. Therefore, everything I have posted is exactly backwards.

Here is a list that I found of the differences between the engines:

quote:

code:

If the 8th digit in your VIN number reads a W, it is a ROMEO 4.6L engine.

If your 8th digit reads 6, you have a WINDSOR 4.6Lengine.



ALL 4.6L T-Birds & Cougars have a ROMEO 4.6L engine.



Here is a couple of differences between the Windsor and Romeo Engines:



Windsor Romeo

Main Bearings Has larger main

bearing caps with

dowels between the

main bearings and

the block. Uses jack screws.

Connecting Rods Uses larger connecting

rods with a full

floating pin and two

retainers. Uses a press fit pin

without retainers.

Camshaft Sprockets Uses an interference

fit between the

camshaft sprocket and

camshaft to secure it. Uses a bolt and

spacer to

secure the camshaft

sprocket.

Flexplate Uses 8-bolts to

secure the flexplate

to the crankshaft. Uses 6-bolts.

Oil Pump Uses high volume

design Uses standard issue.

Valve Covers Uses 14 bolts. Uses 11 bolts.




 
quote:

Originally posted by nickmckinney:

quote:

Originally posted by medic:
Also, in this particular year of F150, the romeo is a 280 cid while the windsor is a 281 cid. In 1998, both the romeo and the windsor were 281 cid.

If you go to the parts store and look in any filter book, you will see this.


Call it "creative rounding", like how a 5.0L Ford should actually rounded to a 4.9L (5.0 sounds better, and I think the truck 300 was already called a 4.9L?)

They did not change the bore or stroke of any 4.6L, so they in actuality are all 281 cubic inches. 3.552" bore, 3.543" stroke.


The 4.9l in the trucks were 300 cid I6 enignes while the 5.0l was a 302 cid V8. These two engine fell right at the end of the range. It is just like a GM 350 cid is a 5.7l while a Ford 351 cid is a 5.8l

I am not sure, but everything I have ever read shows both a 280 and a 281 for the F150's in 1997 only. The 98 and later models are all 281 cid engines. 97 was the first model year for the new f150. Ford may have made a minor change to this engine for use in the trucks. I am not really sure, but I highly doubt they just decided to call one engine a 280 cid while it was a 281 in everything else. I'll have to look into this a bit more.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Schmoe:
What about the 5.4? Same engine, just more stroke. Same conditions apply?

As best as I can tell yes, I don't see any difference about this to the taller deck block.
 
quote:

Originally posted by darkdan:
Taller deck for a longer stroke makes a 5.4L.

Before you make up your mind on the 5w20 thing you should download my spreadsheet and evaluate it yourself. Please right click and save as:

http://www.dantheoilman.com/modular.xls

It's a spreadsheet of all the modular motor UOAs I could find on this site.


Yeah I had looked at that, it is some good info.

Oil viscosity like anything else mechanical is always a compromise. Low viscosity gets to the heads quicker and drains easier, high viscosity protects the crank and bearings better, true for ALL engines. There is no one perfect viscosity that does everything better for any engine all the time.

Problem on the 4.6 and 5.4 (and the V10) is the drainback in the heads suck, but this really matter more to those getting the RPM going.

My 4.6 I am getting together for my car will have over stock:

Mark VIII oil pan (adds another quart)
Dual remote mount filters fed with 10AN line (ain't going through that mess again)
Crank scraper and windage tray
External oil drain lines from the passenger side valve cover to the oil pan.

These mods are just for the oil system, and then definately 20W will be fine, should be about a 7 quart system on the low side of the dipstick (a good thing)

Other planned mods are mildly ported PI heads, low mileage aluminum block, Comp 262 cams, Accufab intake elbow, good exhaust to keep up. A nice street car for everyday, all day use.

Do you know you can get a fully machined brand new iron block from Ford for about $350 delivered to transfer all your parts into? These motors are dirt cheap to rebuild now.
 
WW, I just have one thing to add. I doubt it had anything to do with the the problem being discussed, but its just a bit of info instead.

In '97 (any maybe other years) Ford used 2 different 4.6 engines in the F150's and Expy's. One was the Romeo engine (280 cid) and the other was the Windsor enigne (281 cid). From what I understand, the windsor was the better of the two. I also understand that only the trucks and SUVs recieved the windsor engines. All cars (mustangs, crown vics, cougars, etc...) recieved the romeo engine.

One way to tell which one you have it by checking the VIN.

Another way (I am only 99% sure on this one) is by oil filter placement. If the oil filter is behind the bumper, you have the windsor engine. If the filter is on the side of the block above the driver side tire, then you have the romeo engine.
 
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