Ethanol vs. small engines

[SubLGT]

Here's an interesting quote from the DOE study on E20 in small engines:

"Four commercial Honda generators were tested at TRC. For the one engine tested on E20, operators noted that the engine was “bouncing off the governor” at light loads when testing began, indicating unstable governed speed operation. However, after 250 and then 500 hr of aging on E20, the engine ran normally at all loads."

 

[tdi-rick]

Originally Posted By: doitmyself


While many say that E 10 has a life of 90 days +/-, Chevron says that E 10 should last 1 year under PROPER storage:

"Chevron gasoline can be stored for a year without deterioration when the storage conditions are good — a tightly closed container and moderate temperatures




I'm still investigating. My workplace just switched to E 10. I know that my Stihl 2 cycle oil already has stabilizer in it...a plus. Time will tell if the hysteria plays out.


The problem as far as I can ascertain is storage.
Stored in a sealed metal container, any fuel (not a two stroke mix) should be good for up to twelve months.

Stored in plastic (standard polyethylene) ?
Well, the aromatics apparently just go through the stuff.
According to an engineer I know, the stuff is so porous it isn't funny.

In an 'approved' high density polyethylene (plastic) fuel drum ?
Dunno, the manufacturer won't answer my questions on permeability, so my small engine fuel is stored in clean metal containers.

 

[Mamala Bay]

Originally Posted By: wavinwayne
On one of the small engine forums I frequent, there is a common statement thrown out that gasoline containing ethanol will kill small engines. Is there any truth to this?

Seems that there could be a fuel line incompatibility problem with small engines made before MTBE was replaced by ethanol in gasoline.

My lawn mower and weed trimmer are both 2007 models. They should have been designed with E10 gas in mind, right?



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25936782/

 

[lars11]

I think you are over-anxious about ethanol, and e10 in particular.
- Any engine for gas will need a richer carb when run on E-fuels. However, with e10, the differece would be one or two percent. Your small engine wont notice, they are too wide in spec. You could run a B&S on e85 if you opened up the nozzle for +30% flow and you wouldnt know it was e85, apart from difficult starts in cold temps.
- Ethanol is actually a better fuel. It is clean and it has a much tighter spec than gas. It would be easier to optimize an engine for e100 than for gas100.
- Corn ethanol bumps up food prices. But second phase production now being installed in bigger pilot plants use any carbon based stuff to make ethanol, like garbage, forestry and farm residue. Don't focus so much on the corn, that won't work in the long run anyways.
- E50-E100 won't ruin an engine adjusted for it, it will probably prolong its life because its cleaner.
- Two strokes may experience problem with high ethanol mixtures because the oil (made for gas) mixes badly with ethanol. Adapted oils should mix better.
- Boats have had problems with old fuel tanks made of inferior glass fiber resins. Thats a real problem, but only for some models. Theres no reason you cant make a fuel tank for booze.
- Rubber may deteriorate faster with ethanol in the fuel. Don't use ethanol when you suspect theres rubber in the fuel system.

All in all, its like any fuel: If your engine is not adapted, the fuel won't work well. If you tried making a Diesel85 mix, I can promise that it would work even worse than E85. That doesnt make diesel a bad fuel.
And stop worrying about E10, that is simply just gasoline. If you have engine "problems" with e10, you have problems anyways.
Gas will end some day. And if using second phase ethanol will prolong that time, I like it. Using corn for large scale fuel is questionable but that will go away in a few years.

 

[doitmyself]

Originally Posted By: lars11
I think you are over-anxious about ethanol, and e10 in particular.


Listen to the voice of experience. Sweden is a world leader in the development of biofuel use and they already have practical programs in place using products other than corn.


Thank you, lars11 and Sweden, for sharing your technology with our researchers here in Michigan. Cellulosic biofuel...here we come.

 

[bob_ninja]

As a general rule I use E5 or E10 (not sure exactly what the pump has) during summer when fuel is consumed within a month or two. Then going into winter storage I make sure to use no ethanol and Stabil. My tanks are all plastic, so no corrosion issue.

I run all my machines under a moderate load. If you regularly put a heavy load onto your small air cooled engine, then hotter burning ethanol may cause extra heat issues.

I agrre that is bit of paranoia about ethanol. If you take some precautions it should be fine. I also used the same fuel in my bike and cars, no problems.

In fact I like using E5/E10 at this time of year in my cars as it helps with moisture.

 

[lars11]

I like the opportunity to leave the oil dilemma, but I like my engines too. Ethanol makes both my wishes fly.
Look at the Swedish Koenigsegg, this is NOT a Prius:
Gasoline : 806 Hp
E85 : 1018 Hp
http://www.evo.co.uk/videos/supercarvideos/220476/koenigsegg_ccxr_edition.html

 

[Steve S]

A supercharged engine no? if so alky has a higher octane so more boost can be use dialed in. On an engine built for 87 octane there will be a power loss .

 

[Saturn_Fan]

Originally Posted By: lars11
I think you are over-anxious about ethanol, and e10 in particular.
- Any engine for gas will need a richer carb when run on E-fuels. However, with e10, the differece would be one or two percent. Your small engine wont notice, they are too wide in spec. You could run a B&S on e85 if you opened up the nozzle for +30% flow and you wouldnt know it was e85, apart from difficult starts in cold temps.
- Ethanol is actually a better fuel. It is clean and it has a much tighter spec than gas. It would be easier to optimize an engine for e100 than for gas100.
- Corn ethanol bumps up food prices. But second phase production now being installed in bigger pilot plants use any carbon based stuff to make ethanol, like garbage, forestry and farm residue. Don't focus so much on the corn, that won't work in the long run anyways.
- E50-E100 won't ruin an engine adjusted for it, it will probably prolong its life because its cleaner.
- Two strokes may experience problem with high ethanol mixtures because the oil (made for gas) mixes badly with ethanol. Adapted oils should mix better.
- Boats have had problems with old fuel tanks made of inferior glass fiber resins. Thats a real problem, but only for some models. Theres no reason you cant make a fuel tank for booze.
- Rubber may deteriorate faster with ethanol in the fuel. Don't use ethanol when you suspect theres rubber in the fuel system.

All in all, its like any fuel: If your engine is not adapted, the fuel won't work well. If you tried making a Diesel85 mix, I can promise that it would work even worse than E85. That doesnt make diesel a bad fuel.
And stop worrying about E10, that is simply just gasoline. If you have engine "problems" with e10, you have problems anyways.
Gas will end some day. And if using second phase ethanol will prolong that time, I like it. Using corn for large scale fuel is questionable but that will go away in a few years.


Well said lars11. Thanks for your input on this.

 

[Mamala Bay]

Originally Posted By: lars11
I like the opportunity to leave the oil dilemma, but I like my engines too. Ethanol makes both my wishes fly.
Look at the Swedish Koenigsegg, this is NOT a Prius:
Gasoline : 806 Hp
E85 : 1018 Hp
http://www.evo.co.uk/videos/supercarvideos/220476/koenigsegg_ccxr_edition.html



Small engines are simple carbs...I've notice a difference with the E-10 with small engines. When you burn gallons of fuel rather than home owners that do not use on a daily basis you take notice. The E-10 tend to stale quicker for these small engines. Very pronounced just not good...eventually harder start up causing fuel dilution it just does no good in the long run. Just experience...it's why I spike the fuel with Amsoil PI in very small doses to give it a kick and it makes a difference.

Pushing these small engines to it's limit with changing oil/filter basic services...personally I would say 85% is FUEL in longevity for small engines. Using quality proper oil would be considered proper basic service.

 

[Steve S]

E50-E100 won't ruin an engine adjusted for it, it will probably prolong its life because itscleaner.................................
I wouldn't be sure about that fact.

 

[SHOZ]

I have a problem with my power washer. It has a Briggs and Stratton 5.5 hp motor on it. Around here where I live ALL the gas is at least E10. What happens is the secondary fuel bowl that the fuel is actually draw from immediately before it goes into the engine will eventually fill with enough water that the engine stumbles and will not run at full rpm.

You have to completely take the carburetor off and out of the tank. It's a real PITA.

Other than that I've been using E10 gas since the 70s with no detriment to engine or engine part life.

 

[lars11]

That´s a fuel quality problem. If the fuel is correct from the pump, the ethanol will actually absorb some water, not deposit it in your tank.
If you have condensed water in your tank, like what you get in varying colder temps, what you add to the gas is actually nearly pure ethanol to absorb the water an carry it out with the fuel.

 

[SubLGT]

Here is an interesting article about the push to use 15% ethanol in small engines:

http://www.jsonline.com/business/45370577.html

Excerpt: "An effort to raise the 10% limit on ethanol in gasoline has misfired with Wisconsin engine makers Briggs & Stratton Corp., Mercury Marine, and the maker of Evinrude outboard engines."

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
If you have condensed water in your tank, like what you get in varying colder temps, what you add to the gas is actually nearly pure ethanol to absorb the water an carry it out with the fuel.


Actually, for solubilizing water, the ususal additives are methanol or ispropopyl alcohol (2-propanol/isopropanol).

I prefer isopropyl alcohol ((2-propanol/isopropanol) and recommend it over methanol, less poisonous and less corrosive.

 

[Samilcar]

Originally Posted By: SubLGT
Here is an interesting article about the push to use 15% ethanol in small engines:

http://www.jsonline.com/business/45370577.html

Excerpt: "An effort to raise the 10% limit on ethanol in gasoline has misfired with Wisconsin engine makers Briggs & Stratton Corp., Mercury Marine, and the maker of Evinrude outboard engines."


From article concerning small engines: "The agency might authorize both 10% and 15% blends, although that could create confusion in the marketplace.

'People would put the wrong fuel in their tank, and their engine could be ruined,' Fleming said."

I'm getting a little tired of the "people are too stupid to figure out what they're pumping into their engines" argument. Are these the same legions of stupid people that are pumping diesel into their gas engines?

Give me a well labeled choice of fuels, (E0,E10,E15,E30,diesel,biodiesel etc) and let ME decide what is best for my particular engine. If somebody is too dumb to know what fuel their engine takes, they're too dumb to be operating that engine.

 

[Pete591]

Originally Posted By: tdi-rick
Originally Posted By: exranger06
Originally Posted By: tdi-rick

On two strokes dump any fuel in the tank older than 4-6 weeks old, it's just not worth the risk. Manufacturers generally recommend a 6-8 week fuel life, no more.
I tend to err on the side of caution and mix fresh fuel for each use, hardly ever use anything older than two weeks old. My saws are worth a [censored] of a lot more than a bit of fuel.


I have the same E10 with 2-stroke oil mixed up since April. I'm still using them in my weed-whacker and leaf blower with no ill effects whatsoever. I'll continue to use this mix till it's all used up. I did the same thing last year with no problems.


As I said before, if the manufacturer recommends 6-8 weeks maximum fuel mix life (it's a combination of fuel and possible oil drop-out/separation) I tend to follow it and err on the side of caution.
My saws are expensive, the most recent acquisition would cost over $1000 to replace.

Dealers in the US are reporting new Pro saws burned up when using the correct fuel/oil mix. When tested the fuel has either been old E10 or a higher mix of ethanol.




Happened to me...oil mix was 3 months old. Now I am mixing smaller amounts for 4-6 weeks.

Another reason to go 4-stroke I suppose.