ACEA B vs E

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hermit

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Hi,

Would appreciate some advice on HDEOs for a Land Rover Defender 200tdi. Originally (1991) Land Rover specced CCMC PD2 but the manual also suggested that "superior protection can be obtained using SHPD oil". Current recommended spec is 10w40 or 15w40, B2 or B3. Now this is a direct injection engine, only 2.5L capacity and the majority of people I know use a 15w40 HDEO, particularly for off-roading and towing. A lot of the HDEOs we have access to here (e.g. Deere Plus-50, 15w40) now no longer list ACEA B grades, just the E grades. Would an E grade only oil, without a B3 or B4 listing, cause a problem? Car is used infrequently for towing.

Thanks
 
IMO you should be fine. The ACEA E rating is the new "heavy duty rating" for diesel engines and comply with more rigorous test conditions I assume. All HDEO's I have seen recently have dropped the B4 rating for the new E rating.

The new E rating ( E4 , E5 and E7 ) indicate its Euro emissions compliance as well eg. E7 = Euro 4

I am pretty shure that they are mutually exclusive, ie. you wont see both the B and E rating on the same bottle.
 
Hi Fuzz1, thanks for the reply. There are 15w40 mineral oils with both B and E ratings, although typically the ones I wanted to use seem to have E ratings only (e.g Deere Plus-50, Rimula Super, Castrol Tection). Now i don't know if the dual rated oils are not HDEO oils. Perhaps they are fleet oils? Not sure what the difference would be. My main query is, if I use an E only rated oil, will it be deficient or detrimental for the engine given that Land Rover prescribe B3 spec? Or does the E spec meet or exceed all the specifications found in B3 spec?
 
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Hi,
the ACEA Quality standards have been around since 1996. The numbering suystem is dynamic and some have been made obsolete over time. In simple terms 1 is the lightest type of "duty cycle" and 7 is at the heavy end. The numbers may vary year on year. Expect an E8 in the future for example.

In the case of the "B" and "E" standards;

B = Light duty diesel engines (simple explanation)
B2 is for general purpose use at normal drain intervals
B3 is similar to B2 but for extended drain intervals and in year round viscosity grades

E = Heavy duty diesel engines (simple explanation)
E3 is for Euro 1 and Euro 2 compliance
E5 offers better overall "component" performance and embraces all to Euro 3
E6 embraces all to Euro 4, is suitable for EGR engines with/without particulate filters, and for use with low sulphur fuel
E7 is similar to E6 but is designed for more severe operating conditions

Note Euro engine makers may be very specific about the use of a specific ACEA Quality standard of lubricant. This is due to the types of technologies used

In your case the CCMC PD2 Quality rating was replaced in 1996 with ACEA's B Quality rating and in 2004 with ACEA's A3/B3 or A3/B4 Quality ratings

This is why some people get upset when for instance M1 0W-40 is used in light Euro diesel engines - it may be mandated by the engine's maker. That is what the ACEA system is all about!
 
Hi Doug, many thanks for the reply. Given that Land Rover inferred that a SHPD oil may be advantageous, would a E only rated oil be suitable in this application, i.e. will it meet all the requirements of say B3?

Cheers
 
Hi,
it is probably a little academic really in your use. However, given that LR indicated that a "Super High Performance Diesel" (SHPD) lubricant (ACEA "E") may be better - I would use one

The 5W-40 synthetic SHPD lubricants available in Europe are great products. Delvac 1 5W-40 is but one - there are many

Does you engine have the replaceable MANN-Hummel centrifuge cartridge oil cleaner as standard?
 
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Hi Doug

No this is the 200tdi so it just has a bog-standard screw on oil filter. I tend to stick to minerals as the Defender has 190K miles on it and also synthetics are V. expensive here. A 5w40 would cost about US$50-60/5L, a 15w40 mineral would be about half this price. The Landie takes 7L a fill!
 
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Doug, insn't the Delvac 1300 sold in Europe a CF-4/SH, ACEA E2/B2/A2, oil?

That's what all European data sheets reveal. Might be an excellent performer in simple engine designs though.

What's being marketed in Australia, Delvac MX Gr. I CI-4/SL as "top tier" mineral oil, beside the MX ESP CJ-4, which might be similar to 1300 super in the US?

Also, many "true synthetic" 5w-40 HDEOs have been cancelled, or the manufacturer changed them to the 5w-30 viscosity grade. Are there any options to Delvac 1 and Delvac 1 SHC?
 
Hi,
Extreme-Duty - It is very hard to keep up with the Globalisation of EMs product range

Delvac mineral lubricants in OZ over the last decade or so have been designated;
Delvac 1 5W-40
XHP Extra 15W-40
HP 15W-40
MX 15W-40
HP40
1300 (SAE10,20,30,40,50)
1200D (SAE30,40,50) DD Specific
Diesel engine oil 15W-40
Diesel Extra 15W-40
Power Guard 1240D DD Specific
Power Guard 1300 Super 15W-40
Power Guard Delvac MX 15W-40
Motrex p30 (Perkins run in)

There was no doubt many areas of "Conformity Overlap"

In 2008 the range is;
Delvac 1 5W-40 (AIUI - ESP is not readily available here yet)
XHP Extra 10W-40
MX Extra 15W-40
MX 15W-40
Super 1000 Disel 15W-40
1630, 1640 (SAE30.40)
1330, 1340 (SAE30,40)
1240,1250 (SAE40,50) DD Specific

The latest version of MX Extra 15W-40 is EGR tolerant and has all US engine maufacturer (popular) Approvals - CI-4+/CI-4 to CF/SL/SJ and ACEA E7 and E5 and DHD-1

MX is very similar but is without CI-4+ and has ACEA E7, E5, E3 quality ratings
The are not universally interchangeable between some engine types

So this is part of the complex commercial diesel engine lubricant issue with MX Extra being at the top of the Delvac mineral "tree" - now, and as you say "beside the MX ESP CJ-4" which I believe to be similar to the US 1300 Super

As well Delvac products may encompass many producst within the EM Commercial unbrella, the Esso XD3 products and others in Europe for instance. No doubt these are all variances of a few base products from the Worlds largest makers of low and high viscosity PAOs, and Esters of various types

Delvac mineral HDEOs have always been near the top of the HDEO tree and were long leaders in engine cleanliness and durability - over many decades

As to ligher viscosities see the XD3 variants that are Marketed variously

Euro high speed heavy diesel engine manufacturers have long been on the synthetic or semi- synthetic trail. This is tied to Warranty requirements (MAN, IVECO, MB etc) and specific products sometimes aligned with centrifuge cleaners
They have also been leaders in lower viscosities (US are tied to the 3.7vis HTHS limit)
CAT for example have very specific viscosity requirements for engines in a cold start/cold start environment with absolute limits on a 10W-30 HDEO of -18C to 30C in one engine family

Some Euro engines manufacturers would use that viscosity up to 50C!

User reaction is another issue. When IVECO introduced the Curser (Cummins-IVECO co-operative engine series) range of engines here a few years back many Fleets were reluctant to use the required light viscosity synthetic lubricants. Warranty claim rejection soon put that to bed!

IMHO the requirements of ACEA "B" and "E" may be mutually exclusive in some cases

Always read the label/specification on any product and only use an officially Approved lubricant in any diesel engine built since 1980 is my humble advice!
 
Don't know how I missed this thread ??

Further to what's already been said, IMO these Land Rover diesels give the oil a caning from the UOA's I've seen and talking to those that know.
Again IMO it's a combination of small displacement/reasonable boost/reasonable horsepower/torque for their size powering heavy vehicles often worked very hard in hard conditions.
It also doesn't help when the fuel is increased as I've done, really pushing EGT's.
Also the oil cooler circuit thermostat by-passes the full flow filter when it opens.....

They really do qualify as a Severe Service candidate, and as such demand a premium lube, mineral or synthetic doesn't matter IMO, only that the add package is very, very robust.
Even current blends of Delvac 1 seem to struggle, and I've seen an absolute shocker with Shell Rimula X.
 
Hi,

has anyone tried to use a European Gr. III HDEO in such a demanding L.R. engine, like Shell Rimula Ultra, Castrol Enduron 10w-40, Fuchs Titan Cargo MC or even the high-ash PAO Delvac 1 SHC?

Most of these Euro oils, except Cargo MC, use a good dose of calcium based components.

How would these oils compare to Delvac 1 for example?

@Doug:

Thanks for this detailed product listing.

In Australia, costumers seem to have access to both EM's European and American "top-tier" HDEOs.

Have you been involved in, or seen result of tests with European HDEOs?

As for 30 weights, is it because of the engine design, that European manufacturers allow them in the heat of Australia? (i.e tighter tolerances allowing tighter clearances, if that can be said).

I rather believe it's because they recognize the properties of synthetic oils and their higher VIs in particular.

When Cat speaks of a 10w-30, VII less PAO products are likely not taken into account. For our CDC engines, the Cummins viscosity statement might be valid. Cummins says that a 10w-30 can be used in high ambient temperature applications similar to 15w-40, provided it is CI-4 rated or better. Also, they want good filtration to be ensured because of the "thinner" oil films.

I would say a synthetic ACEA E4/E7 5w-30 is a better choice than a 10w-30 Gr. I, meeting the minimum requirements of CI-4.

Can you mention specific engine families that do wear better with an xw-40?

Did I see a Saab UOA where that was the case?

Regards,

E.D.
 
Originally Posted By: tdi-rick

Even current blends of Delvac 1 seem to struggle, and I've seen an absolute shocker with Shell Rimula X.

Some more explanation on this,please?

On the topic,the only "problem" with the ACEA E category in a passenger car is that the majority of the oils with viscosity other than 15w-40,20w-50 have Sulphated ash levels higher than 1,6wt%(which is the border of A3/B4 category)...some close to 2%...
http://www.acea.be/images/uploads/pub/070308_ACEA_sequences_2007_LD_and_HD.pdf

What always puzzled me was why such levels are acceptable in a modern HD engine and not in a light-duty one(even without sophisticated catalytic devices)..how come?

The european/asia-pacific formula of Delvac MX:
http://www.mobil.com/France-English/Lubes/PDS/EUXXENCVLMOMobil_Delvac_MX_15W-40.asp
...and the US one:
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/NAUSENCVLMOMobil_Delvac_MX_15W-40.asp

Euro 1300:
http://www.mobil.com/France-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENCVLMOMobil_Delvac_Super_1300_15W-40.asp
...US 1300:
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/NAUSE2CVLMOMobil_Delvac_1300_Super.asp

Could someone please shed some info on Delvac SHC 5w-40
http://www.mobil.com/France-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENCVLMOMobil_Delvac_1_SHC_5W-40.asp
...as it it`s ACEA E4/B4/B3 certified with 1,8 wt% Sulph. Ash...
 
Hi Rollins,

there are different issues of these ACEA standards, starting with ACEA XX-96. The current ACEA B4 or B3 requirement might be max 1.6% sulfated ash, but Delvac 1 SHC is an "older" formula that was ACEA certified years ago. Back then, B4/B3 allowed higher ash %. That is my guess!

As you pointed out, ash or SAPS (SAPS = Sulfated Ash, Phosphorus and Sulfur) in engine oils can be a "problem". Everyone talks about SAPS in oil destroying anything, such as catalytic converters and diesel particulate filters. In fact, today's DPF equipped HD engines require the use of oils with lower SAPS contents.

Also, piston deposit can be an issue with high ash containing oils.

Low SAPS oils are commonly known as ACEA E6 oils in Europe. In the US, there is the API CJ-4 standard, allowing a little higher SAPS than ACEA E6. ACEA E9 will be partially based on CJ-4.

Common thinking is that low SAPS oils guarantee low SAPS in exhaust aftertreatment devices. Normal SAPS oils and low oil consumption can do just as good. IMHO, with this CJ-4 standard, they should have done more to assure low oil consumption instead of cutting the SAPS. That would have required better basestocks, pushing the costs up. Also, Gr. II basestocks are readily available in the US, Gr. III and PAO is not.

That's my 2-cent, I can't help it.
 
Thank you for the answer,Extreme-Duty !

Heh,other things come to mind-it`s interesting why HDEO are not popular among the passenger car, SUV,light-duty vans owners in Europe...
Here is for example what Mercedes recommend to be used in a CLS 320 CDI:(in this order,if that matters):
228.3/228.5/228.51
229.3/229.31/
229.5/229.51
..with DPF:
228.51/229.31/229.51
...with the following note;
"In the event that the:
-engine oil brand
-grade (MB Sheet number)
-SAE classification (viscosity)
is not available, you can use another mineral or synthetic engine oil which has been approved by Mercedes-Benz.
Mixing oils reduces the benefits of high-grade engine oil."
http://www.mercedes-benz.de/content/germ...ive_manual.html

However,the idea of using a HDEO in a 4 wheeler looks ridiculous to many.
I`ve never seen an oil recommendation chart-printed or online- by any oil company (in Europe) offering a HDEO for any diesel PC or van.Anything apart from the merchandise trick?
 
Hi,
some more points to consider perhaps - sorry for the ramble;

Engine design and application can play a huge role in lubricant requirements as we all know

For instance a bus engine will spend its intended life with a lot of idling - say 35-50% and at a load factor below 50% whilst a highway truck will spend perhaps 80% of its life at cruise rev levels or above a 50% load factor - typical idle time here is less than 12%. This has an effect on the lubricant requirements and this translates into OCIs and the like

A highway truck here in OZ or in NA will be driven at 1500-2100rpm for hours on end, fully laden at up to 160 tonnes, on long highway gradients of around 3% and at >45C. The load factor here can be above 80% for hours on end
In much of Europe the highway speeds are lower and the engine revs and load factors are too. And point to point travel distances are shorter and this is a lot less demanding as well

1 - IMHO it is unwise to compare the use of an E quality rated lubricant in a B environment They have disparite standards and market place aspirations to meet - therefore Delvac 1 5W-40 may not be tested to a specific B standard as its market place is in the E world! Additionally as they are formulated to meet the higher E ratings they may become mutually exclusive to some if not all of the B ratings

As well the B standards are all linked to the A (petrol engine) standard. The E standards are Heavy Duty engine specific

As mentioned earlier the use of an E standard lubricant should be engine manufacturer specific and appear on their Approvals

I have been involved where an engine manufacturer has had specific engine issues (high oil consumption, excessive deposits etc) emanating from specific fleets - both here in OZ and in other Countries too

The simple facts were/still are that the use of a lubricant of a lessor/higher standard than is called for can lead to glazing, sludging, bore polishing, excessive varnish and the likes. In most of these instances the Fleet's Engineer knew better than the engine's designer? - I'm afraid not!
I have seen it all and I am still learning

2 - I do not know of any high speed heavy automotive diesel engine maufacturer that specifies a SAE50 (??W-50 etc except DD 149 2 cycle) lubricant. Most have a cold weather specification that relates more to the use of 0W, 5W and 10W cold rated lubricants - in particular as to what elevated temperatures these can be keep in service at

3 - Higher SA HD lubricants is/was often a engine design requirement. This relates to a number of things such as (non exhaustive);
a) combustion chamber design (swirl etc)
b) ring pack position
c) piston design

Some engine designs actually use the ash deposit as a fire ring insulator for the top ring and etc

4 - Euro and NA heavy diesel engine design philosphies have often been a very long way apart. Euro engines were designed long ago for fuel economy - well before those in NA ( the exception was the Scania/Mack agreement of the 1950-1960s)

This resulted in very different emissions and performance, and in one simple area, sump capacities too. A typical NA engine would have say 38 litres and a similar power Euro engine 25 litres. As well the Euro maker would endorse a synthetic lubricant and using a centrifuge and perhaps 80k kms OCIs. The NA maker would not and their OCIs would be around 15kkms. Even today only CAT really pushes the use of synthetic lubricants (namely rebranded/formulated Delvac 1 5W-40) amongst the NA "mob".

Now that the largest volume heavy high speed diesel engine producers are all Euro owned things have been a' changin' !!!!

5 - Delvac 1 SHC 5W-40 was withdrawn from sale here around 2000 due to lack of sales. Delvac 1 5W-40 (a Group 4/5 product for many many years) was supplemented and acted as its replacement. It still is!

6 - Both the API and ACEA standards have parameters allowing for formulation changes - and at what point re-certification must take place

7 - IMHO the API is following ACEA. API was long a "sleeper" who set standards for themselves. CAT commenced the change in the late 1930s, MIL standards folllowed and Cummins accellerated the whole process with an escalation of their own standards during the 1980s. This was due to a number of lubricant related issues with their L10 engine family. By evolution the M111 test sequence evolved from the L10 engine familes is service problems (M111 was a new version of the L10, now ISM is)

The ACEA standards are well written and understandable! The API standards are more complex in many ways
The ACEA standards could be made "Global" with very little if any impact on the Automotive Industry at large

Many test sequences are interchangeable with the API in the E quality series and have been for many years - they use Cummins ISM (see 7)above), Mack T8,T8E, T10/T12 (see 4) above) engine test sequences. Test result requirements may vary between the two bodies however!

In contrast the Euro engine makers had their own Approvals systems in the 1950s! This was one link in the foundation of ACEA. NA makers (except CAT/Mack) followed later

8 - One the the first Euro engine makers to have difficulty with lubricants was Volvo during the 1970s-1980s. accordingly they promolgated their initial "VDS" standard

9 - As long as the ACEA lubricant specifications are met and the tests passed it matters very little what is used as the base fluid. Well, IMHO that is except if you want to go to the extremes of use - in temperature or duty cycle perhaps

10- The Worlds largest manufacturer of low and high viscosity PAOs in in NA. They also make more complex ester fluids than anybody else as well

As I have oft pointed out on here over the last six odd years or so - it is the bold person who does NOT use an Approved and Listed product in a heavy high speed diesel engine when it is under warranty!
 
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Hi,
sprintman - OT sorry - I sure would like to be there next Sunday. I believe there will be a few 928 owners there too

I'm currently in the throes of planning a visit to Stuttgart for next May - both to MB and Porsche and maybe VW-Audi. The Director of the Porsche Museum invited me over to see his new Museum at the "Tribute to Porsche" (historic racing cars) meeting at Phillip Island last year. The new Benz Museum opened about 18mths ago and the new Porsche Museum has just opened. A star attraction, the Gulf 917 (flat 12) - winner of the Spa-Francorchamps 1000km race in 1971 at an average speed of 249.069 km/h (Rodriguez/Oliver), is expected to be fully restored by May/June

It was recently started again after around 36 years - still with the same 1971 lubricant in the sump!. A hammer tap or two on the stuck slide valves, 24 new plugs amongst the cooling fans and it fired up! The Engineers who looked after it in 1971 were given the task! It will be rebuilt of course!!

No ACEA B or E lubricants in that beast - ACEA wasn/t even thought of then!! But Porsche was using Shell's Rimula/Rotella monograde HD (CAT Series 3 spec) lubricants as their factory fill then. The only synthetics around then (readily) were Castrol's "R" series for race engines and Mobil, Shell and Caltex aviation lubricants

I must say though that Auto Union, Porsche and Benz did use some pretty "exotic" lubricant brews in the many years leading up to 1971!

Sorry for the "back to the past" verbal romp!!
 
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Autofest pales in comparison!. If timing is good maybe you can catch the Goodwood Festival of Speed in England in 2009 around the same time, the best annual collection of historics racecars and drivers anywhere?
 
Originally Posted By: Rollins
Originally Posted By: tdi-rick

Even current blends of Delvac 1 seem to struggle, and I've seen an absolute shocker with Shell Rimula X.

Some more explanation on this,please?



It's been suggested to me by someone that sees a lot of UOA's that D1 isn't currently showing as well in very severe service as it has in the past when it was arguably the best oil available, period.
What may be behind this I have no idea, and aren't really qualified to comment on, although it was suggested that while ULSD has usefully reduced sulphur and acid formation, the aromatics and possibly fuel additives are doing strange things to the lubes.

I've only been using D1 for seven years, and recent tests aren't showing as well as in the past on two engines, (various issues) but to be fair there are several possible explanations which we are trying to eliminate/work through.

Another Land Rover diesel UOA that was sent through to me for reference using Australian Rimula X (an engine with no know existing issues) was showing far worse numbers overall than I've ever seen, yet raised no flags at the lab.
I should chase him up to see what any recent UOA's have shown after swapping out injectors. (possible fuel dilution issue, although fuel % was listed as under 1%, the limit of reading of that particular lab.)
 
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