Whoops! What Happens if...?

[Jim Allen]

Had a friend over to experience a few hours of the joys of farming yesterday (e.g. I had some free slave labor!). My big tractor has some hydraulic leaks so before going to work, job one was to top it off. I told him to get the "black 2-gallon jug" and pour the entire amount into the trans. Well, he did. But I forgot I had TWO black 2-gallon jugs, one full of THF and the other with "dribbles," my drainings of new oil from jugs that I use in oil cans and such. As it happened, the nearly full two gallon jug contained about 3 quarts of slightly used Amsoil 75W90 Series 2000 syn gear oil (used for a few hundred miles in a gear oil test I did a coupla years ago) and most of the rest was overage, but unused, Type F ATF (4-5 quarts) and probably a little Rotella-T motor oil from the last coupla tractor oil changes. He didn't quite get ALL the stuff in before I got wise, maybe 6 quarts of the mixture. I topped of the rest of the way with THF.

Considering the system hold 24 gallons, I doubt I have much to worry about but I'd feel better if someone patted me on the head and confirmed that. I'm only about halfway through the OCI on the oil, so I'm not anxious to do a change at the moment.

 

[Johnny]

I'm sorry Jim, but I cannot pat you on the head for this. I would drain the system.

Gear oil, Type F, and Rotella T are not a good mix for your tractor hydraulic fluid.

Is this straight hydraulics or does it operate the hydraulics and the transmission of the tractor in question.

I would drain it. Call it lesson learned for the (e.g. free slave labor)

 

[Jim Allen]

It's trans hydraulic fluid, so it's mixed use with the final drive and the hydraulic system. 6 quarts in a 24 gallon (96 qt) system is about six percent dilution of the 20W20 THF with a 66/34 percent solution of SAE 20 ATF and syn 75W90 (the Rotella is a negligible amount)???

 

[Pablo]

I would run it.

 

[Johnny]

The ATF does not bother me, but the gear oil and motor oil have additives in them that are not meant to be in that system, no matter how small the amount. But, it's your tractor. If it were mine, I would change it.

 

[Pablo]

I bow to Johnny's wisdom and experience.

I'm just trying to think what would harm what???

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
I'm just trying to think what would harm what???


Me too. The motor oil content would be less than a quarter percent of the total volume of the system. 3 quarts of gear oil in 24 gallons???? I can't think of what would be the harmful elements in the gear oil? I'd appreciate some enlightenment onthat if you have the time.

Lacking any specific lurking danger, perhaps my most sensible option to a $300 bill is to fast track my leak repairs, which will entail draining the system. I was planning to to that next fall when OCI came due. Maybe I'll do it at the end of this season, which means about 30 more hours of use.

I was planning to run a UOA on this oil too to settle a long debate on the efficacy of Universal Trans Hydraulic Fluids vs the mfr specified oil, but I guess that's shot to heck now with the contamination. Given how much oil I've had to add lately anyway, a UOA would not prove much at this point in any case, even without the current mixup.

 

[bruce381]

I'd leave it system is big and only got a small amount in there gear oil will not cause a problem in that THF is a gear package anyway. Motor oil also IMHO no big deal tho the dispersants MAY pull in any free water and make the oil cloudy but that would take perhaps 50% of the total to do that if at all.

ME i'd leave it and get on with things change out next year.
bruce

 

[Jim Allen]

bruce381: Happy to hear that opinion! I wonder if the small amount of ATF will have any seal conditioning effect. The leak is basically an o-ring, but it's one that's not really easy to get to... "a some disassembly required" deal.

 

[bruce381]

well all the better if you leak it out over time you will have a full oil change LOL for seal swell you could try a few % of a seal swell ester but that would be 24 gallons x 4% is about 1 gallon.

 

[MolaKule]

I agree with Johnny, a costly mistake.

I would drain it, refill and new filter, and drain it after about 15 minutes of operation and refill again with a new filter.

It's the gear oil that is going to cause problems with its high sulfur and phos content (and maybe metal particles and silicon) when it mixes with moisture in the system to corrode the pump and control valving.

 

[Steve S]

I would tend to agree with Bruce. There is nothing in the hyd /trans that the oils would react in a bad way especially considering the dilution .

 

[Jim Allen]

So now I have three polar opinions from three stellar guys, all of which I appreciate, all of whose expertise I respect.

Not sure what I'll do but it's a pretty hard hit for just to get rid of 3 quarts of synthetic gear oil mixed in with 24 gallons of THF (a $600 oil change if I do it twice). Considering that's a third of what I paid for the tractor, I'm inclined walk on the wild side and turn this into an experiment. By that I mean run this season out, do my repair and then change out the oil. When I get into the trans, it will be 100 percent drained so I think I could do without the flush.

 

[Pablo]

Mola - with all the due respect in the world - there won't be that much gear oil in there, PLUS Amsoil gear oil STRAIGHT is 100% fine with soft yellow metals.....I don't get it. What am I missing?

 

[bruce381]

""It's the gear oil that is going to cause problems with its high sulfur and phos content (and maybe metal particles and silicon) when it mixes with moisture in the system to corrode the pump and control valving.""

Well we disagree here.

The gear oil unless a real bad quality product which it is not will NOT cause any corosion or wear issues. Its less than 3 quarts in a 24 gallon trans/dif/hydro system about 3% Volume) NOT a full 24 gallon change out and the gear oil is a modern non active sulfur/Phos towards yellow metals with rust and AO additives I do not think Amsoil is a bad product and gears DO get water and as such the Amsoil would be designed for that ASSUMING any water is even in there.

Amsoil is OK for gear sets and is OK here since most good quality THF are also GL-4 rated.

Last I looked most UTF fluids are sulfur/phos IE LZ 9990A as an example aswell as OLOA 2001.

Now as to debris and wear metals that may have gotten in that is a vaild issue but again IMHO this is a old tractor with leaks and is I'm sure very well worn in and I would also bet has a fair share of GUNK in it already and I think the biggest problem will be to keep oil in the unit ANY oil since it leaks.

I would leave it send out a UOA sample if you want or not.

bruce

 

[bruce381]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Mola - with all the due respect in the world - there won't be that much gear oil in there, PLUS Amsoil gear oil STRAIGHT is 100% fine with soft yellow metals.....I don't get it. What am I missing?


me too what am I missing???

 

[Jim Allen]

Now we're even... two highly respected oil experts against two others! Plus some less expert, but still appreciated, opinions. And my own.

I can attest to some things about the Amsoil in the jug. First, it had, maybe, 200 miles on it, used for my diff oil temp tests a few years back. It was carefully drained via the plug on a Mag-Hytec cover. And I let some drain out first before I collected, so the worst of any settled material was gone. The diff was drained warm and had been flushed twice before with other oils for tests and the axle was well broken in (100K miles, plus) and had been serviced every 30K or so since new. I don't think contamination is much of an issue. The 4-5 qts of ATF was unused six year old Castrol Type F, drained directly from the containers. There was also perhaps a cup of a mix of 15W40 and 10W30 Rotella-T, dribbles from the new jugs used for various oil changes. Again, total volume of the jug was 2 gallons (it was about full) and about six quarts of the mix was poured into the tractor.

BTW, I was off on my cost estimates. If I replace the oil with the same universal stuff it has now, it would be about $200 per change. Not fuzzy math... fuzzy BRAIN! If I go to HyTran or something even more wonderful, it would be nearer the three bills per change I quoted. Given the age of the tractor, it's 8300 hours and the fact that the universal stuff may be as good as what they had in 1970, I'll likely stick with the universal unless I find a great deal on something better.

The more I think about this, based on the testimonies above, the more I think I ought to just stick with it until it's time to tear the unit down. I'd rather not do that this fall but I might if a good opportunity arises. Otherwise, I'll wait and do it next fall as planned. If that turns out to be a mistake, I'm man enough to live with that decision and take responsibility for it. I can probably even manage to get back on here, eat crow, and digitally grovel at Mola and Johnny's feet. Anyway, based on the expert testimony, I have at least a 50/50 chance that nothing will happen. Feel free to debate more but I'm satisfied at this point. Many thanks all!

BTW, I got rid of the second black jug. Black is still for dribbles but gray is now the official THF jug.

 

[Steve S]

99.9% nothing will happen because of the oil.

 

[Johnny]

Color coded containers is always a good idea when you have multiple lubricants around the farm. No groveling will ever be needed on my account.

 

[Julian]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Now we're even... two highly respected oil experts against two others!
Quick, destroy the tractor! You may have created a black hole or something!