MOBIL1 0W-40 vs. CASTROL EDGE 0W-40

[Shannow]

LexusAussie,
Magnatec (the 10W-40 stuff) is a conventional base, with Castrol's UMA (Unique Molecular Attractant or some such guff), which is basically an ester....and I doubt that it is more than 30% so it is "semi-synthetic" according to the would market it as such years ago, and they haven't.

Back in the day that I worked in Shell servos, Shell themselves called their XHVI process "semi synthetic", no semi as in half, but semi as in not all the way.

The old Shell Helix XHVI was labelled by Shell as "semisynthetic" in Oz, their logic being that it provided the "benefits of a synthetic from a mineral base" (quoting from memory, and poring over PDS's 23 years ago)...Castrol case was held, and the Helix immediately became "fully synthetic", although the PP didn't drop a degree.

 

[LexusAussie]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
LexusAussie,
Magnatec (the 10W-40 stuff) is a conventional base, with Castrol's UMA (Unique Molecular Attractant or some such guff), which is basically an ester....and I doubt that it is more than 30% so it is "semi-synthetic" according to the would market it as such years ago, and they haven't.
Agree and that is what I've been saying! I'm waiting for Doug to get on the same page.

Originally Posted By: Shannow
The old Shell Helix XHVI was labelled by Shell as "semisynthetic" in Oz, their logic being that it provided the "benefits of a synthetic from a mineral base" (quoting from memory, and poring over PDS's 23 years ago)...Castrol case was held, and the Helix immediately became "fully synthetic", although the PP didn't drop a degree.
Helix is a Group III as far as I am aware which makes it a Conventional Oil. This "fully synthetic" is pure c@ap for Group III oils.

 

[JAG]

This thread started off on the wrong foot by questioning base oil content of each oil (a common thing, unfortunately). That's like asking how nice a woman's feet look that you are considering going on a blind date with. Those of us in the U.S. can't readily get Edge 0W-40 so feedback from those of us is hard or impossible to give.

 

[JAG]

Looking at the PDS for Edge 0W-40, it looks like it has the makings of an excellent oil: http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_int...40_B1971_05.pdf
Compared to M1 0W-40, I see that it has a lower initial KV @ 100C and equal HTHS viscosity which is a plus IMO (less polymeric VIIs). TBN of the Castrol oil is lower. M1 0W-40 has a more extensive list of oil approvals. Both are worth trying and seeing how each works in your engine.

 

[Drivebelt]

Originally Posted By: LexusAussie
Helix is a Group III as far as I am aware which makes it a Conventional Oil. This "fully synthetic" is pure c@ap for Group III oils.

Group III based motor oils are marketed as synthetic everywhere in the world -- with the possible exception of Germany. So, the Wiki article is completely wrong on that point (that Group III are synthetic only in the US). Even in Germany, some manufacturers may get around the prohibitions (not sure what they are) by marketing Group III motor oils as "using synthetic technology, as oppossed to calling PAO's "Full Synthetic" or "100% Synthetic". For example, Elf Solaris LLX 5W-30, a Group III motor oil, states Elf Synthetic Technology right on the bottle. Now whether they change the labeling for Germany I don't know. Some of Elf PAO based motor oils are marketed as 100% Synthetic.

Quote:
Kline…

But it is now generally accepted practice (except in Germany) to use API Group III base oils to blend certain types of synthetic automotive lubricants, allowing marketers to reduce their costs.

 

[yannis]

The base group discovery was appeling to me in the past, but not anymore.
The USA consumers have only the API and GM-Ford spec's so they are trying to judge the quality of a lubricant solely by its base stock, but again, we now know this is not enough.
In europe we have ACEA which is the baseline series of specifications and then every major car manifacturer adds more challenges seeking durabillity and performance.
When i see a 5W40 with the porsche approval i know it's better than the other which is not. I don't care about the base group, i don't have to know.
I know its NOACK has to be at least 11% in 250C for 1 hour.

If i see VW's 502.00 , i know it's good for 15.000 Km , if i see the VW 504.00 i know is i good for 2 years/30.000 km.
I've seen PAO's with VW 502.00 and group III's with 504.00 , so you understand what is superior, the makers approval for the specific vehicle.

I buy looking for the right specifications and best price.
If i have to choose between the same specifications and happen to know the base group of the oil's i will pick the PAO IF the price is good.

Based on what i have learned here , true synthetics are only the ester based lubricants and they are requared for just 1% of the applications.
All the others can use mineral and have the same protection .
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&topic=85692
Speedyman and others if you haven't read this thead it is time to do so.
Blackstone's comment on this UOA worths 1 million dollars.

 

[LexusAussie]

Originally Posted By: Drivebelt
Group III based motor oils are marketed as synthetic everywhere in the world -- with the possible exception of Germany.So, the Wiki article is completely wrong on that point (that Group III are synthetic only in the US)
The point of the Wiki entry is that the legal definition of Group III as Synthetic applies only to the US. US law only applies in the USA, it does not extend beyond US borders.

It also doesn't change the fact that Group III oils are Severely Hydrocracked Mineral Oils. They are not Synthetic!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: LexusAussie
Originally Posted By: Drivebelt
Group III based motor oils are marketed as synthetic everywhere in the world -- with the possible exception of Germany.So, the Wiki article is completely wrong on that point (that Group III are synthetic only in the US)
The point of the Wiki entry is that the legal definition of Group III as Synthetic applies only to the US. US law only applies in the USA, it does not extend beyond US borders.

It also doesn't change the fact that Group III oils are Severely Hydrocracked Mineral Oils. They are not Synthetic!


The sort of comical part here about this is that your point is the exact point that Exxon-Mobil charged Castrol on. Castrol stated that GIII oils should be Synthetic, and EM stated that they were not.

Ultimately the resultant dispute ended up being ruled in Castrol's favour.

So it would not surprise me that regardless of what YOU define a synthetic oil as, regardless of what Exxon-Mobil defines a synthetic oil as, it's very obvious that Castrol feels that GIII oils are synthetic (as per the US ruling) and it would not surprise me in the least if that policy is global for Castrol (with the exception of Germany).

So if we go by the views of Castrol, then technically, I would say that Doug is correct in what he states.

If we go by what YOU define as a synthetic, then I would imagine it would be "incorrect".

I think we are into a "gray area" because the GIII thing is in itself, a topic of much dispute, even post ruling.

 

[LexusAussie]

Actually, the issue that Doug and I are discussing is slightly different in reality. He defined Group III oils as Semi Synthetic in themselves. They are either Synthetic or they are not. Semi-Synthetics are blends which also flows into the Magnatec issue. I said that they were a Conventional Oil and Semi-Synth at best, he said I was incorrect. I said that Magnatec was a good oil but not Synthetic and he again said I was incorrect! It can't be both Semi-Synth and Synthetic.

I agree that the Group III is a gray area but only "outside of the US". Again, US law only applies to the US and Company policy has to meet local laws. For example, if the EU decide to define Group III formally as a Mineral Oil, EM & Castrol etc will have to comply.

To be honest, I'm over this whole thimg.

Doug made a very valid point in another post that some Group III oils rival Groups 4/5 in performance so what does the whole thing matter?

 

[Johnny]

One thing that needs to be cleared up is, there is no U.S. law on this subject. This never went to a court of law and a judge or court of law did not rule on this issue.

The original complaint from Mobil was taken before an arbitration board of the FTC (Federal Trade Commission). They are the ones that said Castrol could call Group III sythetic.

 

[LexusAussie]

Originally Posted By: Johnny
One thing that needs to be cleared up is, there is no U.S. law on this subject. This never went to a court of law and a judge or court of law did not rule on this issue.

The original complaint from Mobil was taken before an arbitration board of the FTC (Federal Trade Commission). They are the ones that said Castrol could call Group III sythetic.



Thanks Johnny.

Same effect though. The FTC only has authority in the US.

 

[Drivebelt]

Synthetic is purely an advertising term. That's why the complaint by Mobil was taken to the NAD (National Advertising Division (NAD) of the Council of Better Business Bureaus). Mobil essentially claimed it was false advertising. Castrol presented their evidence, and the body ruled that advertising Group III's as synthetic was reasonable given the process on how they were made. None of the oil specification bodies (API, ILSAC, ACEA) got involved in the issue.

Even though Group III's are commonly referred to as highly-refined, it's a very loose use of the term highly-refined. Hydrocracking is both a refining and a chemical engineering process. Unfortunately, the common referral on the web to GIII's in this manner misleads people into thinking that hydrocracking is only a refining process in the traditional sense that Group I's are made.

Given that synthetic is just an advertising term (with no specific technical requirement laid out by any of the oil specification bodies). It's purely up to the oil manufacturer if they want to market a Group III as synthetic (unless the country has specific laws relating to what can and cannot be advertised as synthetic). One could sell a Group III based oil and not advertise it as synthetic at all. One could market it as a semi-synthetic -- or even a synthetic, or even just as a high-performance oil.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: JAG
Looking at the PDS for Edge 0W-40, it looks like it has the makings of an excellent oil: http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_int...40_B1971_05.pdf
Compared to M1 0W-40, I see that it has a lower initial KV @ 100C and equal HTHS viscosity which is a plus IMO (less polymeric VIIs). TBN of the Castrol oil is lower. M1 0W-40 has a more extensive list of oil approvals. Both are worth trying and seeing how each works in your engine.


Jag, went from Mobil 1 0W-40 in my turbodiesel to Castrol 0W-30, seeing the HTHS, and KV100, hoping to improve economy a tad...Castrol gave measurably worse economy...which makes sense given the HTHS.

 

[sprintman]

My brain hurts.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Drivebelt
Synthetic is purely an advertising term. That's why the complaint by Mobil was taken to the NAD (National Advertising Division (NAD) of the Council of Better Business Bureaus). Mobil essentially claimed it was false advertising. Castrol presented their evidence, and the body ruled that advertising Group III's as synthetic was reasonable given the process on how they were made. None of the oil specification bodies (API, ILSAC, ACEA) got involved in the issue.

Even though Group III's are commonly referred to as highly-refined, it's a very loose use of the term highly-refined. Hydrocracking is both a refining and a chemical engineering process. Unfortunately, the common referral on the web to GIII's in this manner misleads people into thinking that hydrocracking is only a refining process in the traditional sense that Group I's are made.

Given that synthetic is just an advertising term (with no specific technical requirement laid out by any of the oil specification bodies). It's purely up to the oil manufacturer if they want to market a Group III as synthetic (unless the country has specific laws relating to what can and cannot be advertised as synthetic). One could sell a Group III based oil and not advertise it as synthetic at all. One could market it as a semi-synthetic -- or even a synthetic, or even just as a high-performance oil.

THANK YOU.

Also, while I disagree with yannis's sweeping statements regarding approvals and synthetic vs. conventional, I agree strongly with his sentiment that basestock is hardly relevant when the chips are down. It should be about what works, period.

If we want to argue about whether it's disingenuous to call a group III lube "synthetic", that's fine. It's a legitimate debate. But this thread is supposed to be about what works, and I think we all know that basestock is rarely decisive when it comes to performance.

 

[JAG]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Jag, went from Mobil 1 0W-40 in my turbodiesel to Castrol 0W-30, seeing the HTHS, and KV100, hoping to improve economy a tad...Castrol gave measurably worse economy...which makes sense given the HTHS.
Similar here. I got measureably, consistent worse gas mileage with GC than M1 0W-40 in my VW 1.8T.

 

[Audi Junkie]

Americans who want the latest Castrol "Edge" can try this:

Here is PDS for BMW's 0w-40

 

[virginoil]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
Dave - Well going by your comments I must consider whether I should contribute further to BITOG or not. It is noted that you joined BITOG in 2008 - I joined in 2003!

I'll carefully consider your advice and thank you!

..............!"


Doug

Let me help you.

There's nothing further to consider, your comments and input is valuable IMO. You cannot NOT contribute.

I am glad you contribute (and other originals) to this site, are one of the reasons I chime in from time to time.

 

[virginoil]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
Dave - Well going by your comments I must consider whether I should contribute further to BITOG or not. It is noted that you joined BITOG in 2008 - I joined in 2003!

I'll carefully consider your advice and thank you!

As for Castrol's Magnatec my details previously provided here in this Thread are accurate. ..........................................................................

My offer of hard copies of some extracts from Castrol's Lubrication Reference Guides still stands - just provide me your e-mail address

In the meantime and as I said earlier "I'll carefully consider your advice and thank you!"


Hey Lexus Aussie Dave

Just for interests sake how come you have declined Doug's offer to provide his hard evidence ?

I would like your review and feedback on the information.

What is there to lose to taking up the offer?

 

[LexusAussie]

Originally Posted By: virginoil
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
Dave - Well going by your comments I must consider whether I should contribute further to BITOG or not. It is noted that you joined BITOG in 2008 - I joined in 2003!

I'll carefully consider your advice and thank you!

As for Castrol's Magnatec my details previously provided here in this Thread are accurate. ..........................................................................

My offer of hard copies of some extracts from Castrol's Lubrication Reference Guides still stands - just provide me your e-mail address

In the meantime and as I said earlier "I'll carefully consider your advice and thank you!"


Hey Lexus Aussie Dave

Just for interests sake how come you have declined Doug's offer to provide his hard evidence ?

I would like your review and feedback on the information.

What is there to lose to taking up the offer?


I had forgotten all about this thread. Had to re-read it to familiarise myself with it!

If you read my post of 23/7/08, I didn't decline his offer. I requested that the info be current not 6 years old (now 7 years old). Formulations of any product move a h@ll of a lot in that timeframe.

Not wanting to flare Doug up again (as I respect him greatly) I enclose the latest TDS for both Castrol Magnatec 10W40 and Magnatec 5W40:

http://www.tds.castrol.com.au/pdf/8880_Castrol_Magnatec_10W40_119369_2006_10.pdf

http://www.tds.castrol.com.au/pdf/5009_Magnatec_Professional_5W-40_119398_2009_06.pdf