VOA: Toyota Type WS

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Most seal swell agents today are mostly esters:

tris (C8-C24 hydrocarbyl) phosphite ester

Bis(2-ethylhexyl) ester phosphoric acid

Dihexyl Phthalate ester

and the azelamides such as:
N,N'-dimethyl-N,N'-dihexylazelamide, N,N'-dimethyl-N,N'-di2-ethylhexylazelamide, N,N'-dimethyl-N,N'-di-2-ethylhexylsebacamide
 
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Although, as you state, many seal swell agents are esters. However, not by any means all of them. Some of the alternatives contribute to the overall sulphur content as measured by ICP in the fluid analysis. If you want me to name products, I can. Legitimate formulators of modern ATFs would know what I'm talking about.
 
Originally Posted By: Whitewolf
Sulphur is of course what I intended to type.


I thought it was sulfur? Sulphur is made in England, Ireland and the Commonwealth and it generally not available in the USA.
 
Sulphur is for illegitimate formulators.
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Most modern seals are made of flouroelastomers,

http://www.zrunek.at/download/ZruElast FPM UK.pdf

in which the plasticizers are esters. So to swell a seal, the plasticizer is the most logical choice for swelling.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Is the sulpher not an EP agent? Or is it more an AW in this PPM?


To go back to your question, as I stated previously apart from the sulphur content of the basestock, usually additional sulphur content (and it can be considerable) comes from seal-swell agents. It doesn't seem to be a well known fact here, that one of the most popular types of seal swell agent are sulphones and therefore contribute a high level of sulphur content to the formulation.

This is not an opinion, it's fact. I could name products but confidentiality issues prevent me from doing so. If you want to PM me for more information, I'll be happy to share anything that I'm permitted to.
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Most modern seals are made of flouroelastomers


There is an excellent SAE publication, SAE#2003-01-3252 written by some GM experts, which describes not only the process that they went through in updating GM's DEXRON-III seal test, but also the materials that were selected, and the reason why they were selected. Although it was published in 2003, it does illustrate that FKMs were not the most widely used material. If anyone wants to check out the use of seal materials by various OEMs, you have only to read Ford MERCON V specification, GM DEXRON-VI specification, Chrysler MS-9602 etc. to see who uses what.
 
Thanks for the info guys.

What would be a typical PPM of a modern GL-5 gear oil be? Labs don't often report sulphur so we don't see these numbers much.

And why don't they report sulphur? It would seem to be very important for just about any lubricant.
 
I have seen 3,000 ppm of sulfur or better in some GL5 diffy formulations.

Most people don't realize how much sulfur is in their lubes, and don't realize how many additives are made of sulfur compounds.
 
With respect, the original focus of this thread was to talk about Toyota WS. If we're now moving onto gear oil, I think it's probably more appropriate to open another thread.
 
so based on the similarities between Dexron VI and Toyota WS is it safe to say they are interchangeable. Everything I have seen shows they are very similar except for the the brookfield test where VI is somewhere around 12,500 and WS is around 9,000
 
Originally Posted By: stu4202
so based on the similarities between Dexron VI and Toyota WS is it safe to say they are interchangeable. Everything I have seen shows they are very similar except for the the brookfield test where VI is somewhere around 12,500 and WS is around 9,000


Proper frictional characteristics are critical and there is no way for you to confirm that they are identical.
 
Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: stu4202
so based on the similarities between Dexron VI and Toyota WS is it safe to say they are interchangeable. Everything I have seen shows they are very similar except for the the brookfield test where VI is somewhere around 12,500 and WS is around 9,000


Proper frictional characteristics are critical and there is no way for you to confirm that they are identical.


Actually Critic you and I both know that they are VERY different.
 
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