"Most wear occurs at start-up"

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
I didn't see any hint of meanness in anybody's response to Oilgal here or elsewhere.


Yeah ..I couldn't find anything out of whack back there either

Must have been a bad day

 

[deven]

She was all "drama" to begin with anyway.....no insult intended.

 

[virginoil]

Hi

I got the impression that Oilgal thought she could conquer all there is to lubrication in 10 easy steps. No so.

I am sure there will be others that will have experiences similiar to Oilgal, some may react the same and leave, some may see it as challenge and will buckle up, stay on and learn.

There is much to learn regarding the technical aspects eg:
1. Thick versus thin
2. Petrol versus diesel formulation
3. Driving style, climatic conditions
4. Pan Heaters, Bypass filtration etc
5. Changes to oil spec's, CAFE, eg 5w20 versus 0w30
6. Viscosity, Operating temperature, extended drain
7. UOA INTERPRETAION
8. PAO v group 3 v group 1 & 2. Impact of GF4 and GF5
9. Backwards capability requirements

Many experienced members who are on BITOG learn from each other every day.

I was reading the great debates between Tooslick, Pablo, Doug Hillary, Dr T, Molecule, Bobistheoilguy (the MAN), Terry, Patman some 2 years before I joined in 2005. More recently Dr Haas, Gary Allan, Buster, GaryBrowning, TallPaul ………..and others. Sorry if I have missed any.

Regardless of gender all members I feel are generally treated the same, sometimes members comments are hard hitting, but that’s is life. Disputes are generally resolved after a day or so.

Quite a few pages on this thread are dedicated to bringing Oilgal upto speed. I feel the search engine, sometimes lets this site down, as Oilgal could have better education herself if threads were listed instead of the current system where each post in each is listed.

I must admit I was fortunate to join under the old search engine and it was a great way to search topics and learn from old posts. I know this has been raised before but there is no one to BLAME here, Oilgal is free to come and going of her own choosing.

I am not saying Oilgal’s contribution was not important, or she was a less member than anyone else was. BIOTG members learn from this and the site is a self serve site providing you are prepared to take time to seek, look, read, ask and keep an open mind.

I think personally, she has been harder on herself than BITOG members have.

Now back to business as usual …………

 

[slipperysam]

I have read back through and the only reason I can find for Oilgal wanting to leave is partly out of her own frustration in
understanding the whole concept of multi vis oil and partly in the lack of being able to clearly communicate the information
she needed to understand it. This is why we had labs in science class. To see in practical demonstration what we were taught in class. Helps drive home the point of the lesson. Lacking that facility she was having difficulty with this concept and it is not an uncommon problem. No real fault to any parties involved.
Plain old teacher-student disconnect, that's all.

SS

 

[02zx9r]

Hopefully she will be back, she did have some good points and seemed to understand some things and make contributions.

 

[INDYMAC]

I think her desperation/frustration goes way beyond BITOG's inability to deliver the holy grail. Her circumstances in life are delivering a stressful blow to her right now. As the Beatles would say, "Let it Be", might be the best thing to do right now.
I think Oilgal will be back again after her move to Vermont. She just needs to be able to relax and absorb this stuff like a sponge again, then ask more questions.

 

[d00df00d]

Almost all of us are male. So, when a bunch of us pile in to inform someone, we do so in a way that would be intelligible to a man as "no, that's not it. This is how it is, and everyone wants you to know."

The same message delivered in the same way can easily be interpreted by a woman as "you are not thinking correctly, you have nothing to contribute here, and we do not want you."

This is a typical Mars/Venus thing.

 

[bob_ninja]

Certainly women dislike disagreements in general, which are not lacking here. Here is another example, albeit from a male.

When I first found this site I was overwhelmed by the information, total info overload. I actually walked away from the site, it was too rich. It took me several weekes to return and slowly search older posts to learn about different things before I could even begin to read new posts.

For someone new there is too much accumulated information that is scattered, so it is hard to even figure out where to start. I would suggest a sticky some place for new visitors that would teach them basics. Perhaps this post would have links to exising discussions covering different topis.

Then when someone is lost you just point them to the sticky.

 

[Gary in Sandy Eggo]

Originally Posted By: Oilgal
GaryI thought a 5w 30 was a 5 weight, that has polymers that 'unfurl'(?), to thicker it up when it got up to temp.

So why doesn't preheating, a multivis oil, cause the polymers to expand and thicken it up? What you said before obviously makes no sense to me.

Sorry. I am trying, and I just am asking 'why', as you advised us to do.

Did you take off? hello?

Answering questions in reverse order, sorta . . .

Yes, I did take off. Was gone for two days visiting my elderly mom.

Regarding how a multi-vis works, others have explained very well how and why a multi "thins" less upon heating (rather than thickens on heating).

Regarding my position on oil viscosity at operating temperature, I like to have 14+ Cst at operating temperatures for the purpose of keeping moving metal parts from touching. The problem with wide-spread multi-vis oils is that they shear down toward the lower viscosity with use. What started as a 30-wt at operating temperatures can be a 20-wt a thousand miles later, and an even lower viscosity as miles add up. Multi-vis oils substitute a variety of additives to make up for the lack of oil "cushioning", but they're a less than perfect substitute for the cushion they're intended to replace.

Finally, someone else stated that car usage is a significant factor in oil choice. That's pretty much true. Lotsa short trips, would profit mightly with a 0W-20 oil. That's because the oil temperature never reaches the expected operating temperature, and that thin oil is STILL thicker than a SAE-30 monograde which IS at operating temperature.

A motorcycle is very hard on multi-viscosity oils because of the transmission operating with the same oil that the rest of the engine uses. Those gears chop the VII polymers up, rendering them useless as a "thickening" agent in a very short period of time. With a motorcycle (unlike a car), this shear is quickly detected by the shifting becoming "crunchier" as miles are added.
I could always tell the 20W-50 was sheared out of grade within about 500 miles. Consequently, I use a mono-grade in my motorcycle, but I DO preheat the whole works about 40F above ambient with a shop light to ensure sufficient cylinder wall lubrication during the first several minutes of operation.

Enough of this blather.

 

[Saturn_Fan]

I don't know what happened either. Re-read the thread and can't find anything that would trigger her pulling her account and dropping out. Like Gary said, must've had a bad day.

BITOG, IMHO, doesn't have a real problem with hostility towards noobies. This is one of the best, if not the best, forum/discussion groups on the Internet. I also like the one at Saturnfans.com too.

 

[kgb007stb]

Interesting to note that we have a 10 year old chevy lumina with 45k miles, this car sees nothing but cold mileage as it is driven no more than 3 miles at a time. I don’t even remember when the last oil change was made, but there sure must be heavy fuel dilution that degrades the oil fast. After 10 years and 45k miles of cold operation, the engine seems as responsive as in any other V6 vehicle.

Wondering if modern day oils do a better job at protecting the engine in cold operation than the previous generation of oils? If cold wear was that bad, then this car should be losing its power due to worn rings and the oil should be getting dark due to blow by. None is happening, so I always wonder if the whole cold wear is more overblown than we think it is.

We also have members here that operate their vehicles far below the freezing point, yet their UOAs are no different than from cars in warmer climates.

 

[bluesubie]

Maybe someone sent her a nasty PM.

-Dennis

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: TallPaul
Could it be that cold start wear is more due to the contracted state of the metal components in a cold engine, vs the expanded state in the hot engine?

The cylinders could be slightly out of round, also bearings in cold, especially extreme cold.

Maybe, just maybe, oil flow is not a significant component, since there is a sacrifical coating of the antiwear additives built up in the engine on the bearing surfaces etc., which can be worn down partly and built back up during the operating temperature phase. This suggests that the worst thing is to start and cold engine then not run it to operating temperature as you will repeatedly shave off some of that sacrifical layer. Not to mention the pumping of acids and such into the oil that won't "burn off."

Bingo!

 

[hi-miler]

Originally Posted By: virginoil
Sometimes I think we focus too much emphasis on the oil what about driving habits and maintenance some which come to mind are eg

1. How many put the car under full load before engine operating temperature is reached, especially for those in cold climates.

2. Driving with a light foot and keeping the revs below 1500rpm for the first 7-10 mins.

3. No sudden acceleration or deceleration during the 7-10min warm up period, a bit like when running a brand new engine for the first 1000Km BREAK IN PERIOD

4. Check injectors and service if fuel dilution is an issue.

5. Drive like you stole it, spirited driving mentality etc call what you want, only do this when the conditions are safe and it is legal to do so and your vehicle has been correctly prepared.

6. Improper towing or loading of vehicle.

7. Choose a driving route so you are not stuck in stop start traffic. Warm the car on the street before hitting the freeway on ramp at 110km/phr. and/or leave at time when road is most likely to be more free flowing

8. Expectation of a small 4 cylinder turbo to give the same performance as a V8 muscle car ie match your vehicle choice to use.



Guilty parties listed below

1. Wife
2. Me, but only in my truck. Wife doesn't like my driving.
3. See above
4. Wha? Does that mean I have to send in an oil sample?
5. Wife regardless of vehicle state of repair.
6. You would truly be surprised at what can fit in the back of a Lincoln!
7. Wife
8. Wife

Regards
Husband
PS She'll never admit to this and I'll never admit to writing this.

 

[virginoil]

Well there's one other honest person on this site prepared to confess.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: TallPaul
Could it be that cold start wear is more due to the contracted state of the metal components in a cold engine, vs the expanded state in the hot engine?

The cylinders could be slightly out of round, also bearings in cold, especially extreme cold.

Maybe, just maybe, oil flow is not a significant component, since there is a sacrifical coating of the antiwear additives built up in the engine on the bearing surfaces etc., which can be worn down partly and built back up during the operating temperature phase. This suggests that the worst thing is to start and cold engine then not run it to operating temperature as you will repeatedly shave off some of that sacrifical layer. Not to mention the pumping of acids and such into the oil that won't "burn off."

Bingo!


That's what the term "startup" means. Anything other than full thermal saturation.

 

[TallPaul]

So the major engine wear occurs from engine parts being distorted by the contracted condition of the cold engine. But this brings up some interesting thoughts:

The block is bored cold. Even if you blueprint the engine, you are still doing it cold. Nobody puts the engine in a 500 degree oven and wears an abestos suit to measure clearances. So the initial startup of a new engine would be with all parts in conformity. As that engine warms up, it distorts through heat expansions and excess wear occurs, which presumably is a big component of initial breakin wear. Once broke in, the engine parts now are in conformity when at operating temperature and the cold engine is the distorted condition. So in a mini sense, every time you start a cold engine you are replicating a sort of engine breakin condition and the associated excess wear.

Hmmmmmm.......

 

[JAG]

Originally Posted By: TallPaul
So the major engine wear occurs from engine parts being distorted by the contracted condition of the cold engine.

Is there any study or testing, etc. that indicates this is true?

The study mentioned above found that cold engine with hot oil gave low wear. That discounts expansion/contraction effect on wear.

 

[FZ1]

That's why I link all errands and keep my engine running in the drive thru when the engine is cold. I try to minimize the number of cold starts. Gas mileage is secondary to me when my cold engine has just been started.

 

[jpr]

Originally Posted By: TallPaul
So the major engine wear occurs from engine parts being distorted by the contracted condition of the cold engine. But this brings up some interesting thoughts:

The block is bored cold. Even if you blueprint the engine, you are still doing it cold. Nobody puts the engine in a 500 degree oven and wears an abestos suit to measure clearances. So the initial startup of a new engine would be with all parts in conformity. As that engine warms up, it distorts through heat expansions and excess wear occurs, which presumably is a big component of initial breakin wear. Once broke in, the engine parts now are in conformity when at operating temperature and the cold engine is the distorted condition. So in a mini sense, every time you start a cold engine you are replicating a sort of engine breakin condition and the associated excess wear.

Hmmmmmm.......
Makes sense to me - the high wear time is neither cold nor not, but the transition period from cold to hot. That correllates with the seeming independence of oil choice from wear rate found in the SAE study referenced above. The governing issue is the differential thermal expansion rates of the engine components. Viscosity at steady state conditions still matters of course, but during the transition period it's the oil's thermal influence that matters the most.