"Most wear occurs at start-up"

[hi-miler]

Methinks that cars are slowly going the way of industrial machinery. Prelube, oil analysis, post lube, maybe even eventually preheaters. Oil and air filter monitors to let us know when they need changing, etc. .
When I got married my wife had a 75 VW Scirocco that I used Kendall 10w-30 oil in. In Dallas, TX on cold winter mornings, 30deg.F, the darn thing wouldn't hardly turn over! Start? Out of the question. Being newlyweds, love was in abundance but money was not. So, I came up with a poor mans block heater, a droplight. Plug it in the night before, place it catacorner next to the oilpan at about the 7 oclock position, and WALAH! Started up like it was summertime. Seventy five watts incandescent, an existing droplight and you've just saved yourself a chunk of the green stuff. Not only the oil, but the engine block and battery benefitted from this simple excercise.
Steve

 

[Gary in Sandy Eggo]

Originally Posted By: hi-miler
I came up with a poor mans block heater, a droplight. Plug it in the night before, place it catacorner next to the oilpan at about the 7 oclock position, and WALAH! Started up like it was summertime. Seventy five watts incandescent

Most would be surprised just how much a properly placed light bulb can pre-heat engine oil. In Sandy Eggo, the lowest temperature my garaged vehicles ever sees is maybe 40F, and that would be only rarely. Most of the winter, start temps are 50F+ and in the summer, 65F+. So, I don't concern myself with the cars which have 10W-30 in the winter, but I do concern myself with my sheet-covered motorcycle in which I use mono-grade SAE-40 in order to avoid multi-viscosity oil shear-down. To give the bike a break, I wedge a 100-watt bulb in a circular aluminum reflector directly under the engine case the night before I go for a ride. In the morning, the entire engine, including the transmission, cylinders, and 5 quarts of oil, are about 40F above ambient. In addition, I keep the bike rpm under 2500 for the first five minutes, or so.

People are fond of quoting that most engine wear occurs on start-up, and with oil of sufficient viscosity that will be true. But, not for the reason you think. It will be true because with sufficient viscosity, you'll get NO engine wear at operating temperature. Run a considerably lower viscosity oil, and most of the wear will start taking place where none took place before, and that's at operating temperatures. Viola!!! Most of the wear no longer takes place at start-up. It now takes place after the engine's warmed up.

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: Gary in Sandy Eggo
Originally Posted By: hi-miler
I came up with a poor mans block heater, a droplight. Plug it in the night before, place it catacorner next to the oilpan at about the 7 oclock position, and WALAH! Started up like it was summertime. Seventy five watts incandescent

Most would be surprised just how much a properly placed light bulb can pre-heat engine oil. In Sandy Eggo, the lowest temperature my garaged vehicles ever sees is maybe 40F, and that would be only rarely. Most of the winter, start temps are 50F+ and in the summer, 65F+. So, I don't concern myself with the cars which have 10W-30 in the winter, but I do concern myself with my sheet-covered motorcycle in which I use mono-grade SAE-40 in order to avoid multi-viscosity oil shear-down. To give the bike a break, I wedge a 100-watt bulb in a circular aluminum reflector directly under the engine case the night before I go for a ride. In the morning, the entire engine, including the transmission, cylinders, and 5 quarts of oil, are about 40F above ambient. In addition, I keep the bike rpm under 2500 for the first five minutes, or so.

People are fond of quoting that most engine wear occurs on start-up, and with oil of sufficient viscosity that will be true. But, not for the reason you think. It will be true because with sufficient viscosity, you'll get NO engine wear at operating temperature. Run a considerably lower viscosity oil, and most of the wear will start taking place where none took place before, and that's at operating temperatures. Viola!!! Most of the wear no longer takes place at start-up. It now takes place after the engine's warmed up.




I couldn't agree more. This is also the reason I run the Amsoil ACD 30wt year round.

 

[FZ1]

Thanks,Hi Miler! Great idea!

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: Gary in Sandy Eggo
Originally Posted By: hi-miler
I came up with a poor mans block heater, a droplight. Plug it in the night before, place it catacorner next to the oilpan at about the 7 oclock position, and WALAH! Started up like it was summertime. Seventy five watts incandescent

Most would be surprised just how much a properly placed light bulb can pre-heat engine oil. In Sandy Eggo, the lowest temperature my garaged vehicles ever sees is maybe 40F, and that would be only rarely. Most of the winter, start temps are 50F+ and in the summer, 65F+. So, I don't concern myself with the cars which have 10W-30 in the winter, but I do concern myself with my sheet-covered motorcycle in which I use mono-grade SAE-40 in order to avoid multi-viscosity oil shear-down. To give the bike a break, I wedge a 100-watt bulb in a circular aluminum reflector directly under the engine case the night before I go for a ride. In the morning, the entire engine, including the transmission, cylinders, and 5 quarts of oil, are about 40F above ambient. In addition, I keep the bike rpm under 2500 for the first five minutes, or so.

People are fond of quoting that most engine wear occurs on start-up, and with oil of sufficient viscosity that will be true. But, not for the reason you think. It will be true because with sufficient viscosity, you'll get NO engine wear at operating temperature. Run a considerably lower viscosity oil, and most of the wear will start taking place where none took place before, and that's at operating temperatures. Viola!!! Most of the wear no longer takes place at start-up. It now takes place after the engine's warmed up.




I couldn't agree more. This is also the reason I run the Amsoil ACD 30wt year round.



If I read that right,it`s the way I`ve always thought. A trade off per se. Thinner oils = faster flow at startup,but thicker oils = better protection w/thicker oil film between moving parts for better protection during operation.

 

[cmanser]

With the new synthetic 0W-xx oils you get the best of both worlds though. The 0W at start-up and then at running temp you get the 20 - 30 - or 40 weight.

Seems like oil is getting better and better and able to meet tougher demands placed on it.

 

[Brian Barnhart]

Originally Posted By: Gary in Sandy Eggo
Run a considerably lower viscosity oil, and most of the wear will start taking place where none took place before, and that's at operating temperatures. Viola!!! Most of the wear no longer takes place at start-up. It now takes place after the engine's warmed up.


If that were true, engines on a constant diet of 5W20 should be showing significantly more wear than those on heavier oil. Since that certainly isn't the case, it brings the validity of the quote above into question.

 

[virginoil]

Sometimes I think we focus too much emphasis on the oil what about driving habits and maintenance some which come to mind are eg

1. How many put the car under full load before engine operating temperature is reached, especially for those in cold climates.

2. Driving with a light foot and keeping the revs below 1500rpm for the first 7-10 mins.

3. No sudden acceleration or deceleration during the 7-10min warm up period, a bit like when running a brand new engine for the first 1000Km BREAK IN PERIOD

4. Check injectors and service if fuel dilution is an issue.

5. Drive like you stole it, spirited driving mentality etc call what you want, only do this when the conditions are safe and it is legal to do so and your vehicle has been correctly prepared.

6. Improper towing or loading of vehicle.

7. Choose a driving route so you are not stuck in stop start traffic. Warm the car on the street before hitting the freeway on ramp at 110km/phr. and/or leave at time when road is most likely to be more free flowing

8. Expectation of a small 4 cylinder turbo to give the same performance as a V8 muscle car ie match your vehicle choice to use.

 

[TallPaul]

Quote:
keeping the revs below 1500rpm for the first 7-10 mins
This is not practical. It precludes you from entering the freeway for the first 7-10 minutes, unless you want to take chances. You may have to mash the pedal if the traffic is not giving you an entry point.

Even on the coldest days I drive about 1 mile on surface roads, then enter the freeway. My revs before the freeway probably don't exceed 1500, but upon entering the freeway I have to hit at least 2000 or more.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: Brian Barnhart
It looks like my question has been answered. Everyone seems to be saying thinner oil flows better, or that the additional flow of thinner oil might reduce start-up wear.


Thinner oil flows easier.

..but..

Quote:
Does the study/data that indicates “most wear occurs at start-up”, also indicate that the lighter weight oils reduce start-up wear? Or is that just a frequently made assumption?


Although there are indeed studies that show that lower viscosity fluids reduce wear at initial startup, the term is misapplied. Startup is "warm up". Non-steady state. I saw no mention of this in other posts (but may have missed it). The "most wear" is the ill fitment of pistons/rings due to lack to complete thermal expansion because the engine isn't fully saturated and is soaking up heat and isn't (yet) throughputting the excess btu's in an almost kinetic like action.

That's how SAE defines "startup" ..our sponsor tends to capitalize on the apparent truth of this term.

 

[JAG]

Originally Posted By: bluemax1
The SAE paper that did testing on cold starts vs. hot starts and resultant wear had some interesting results too.

As it turns out, cold oil (room temp IIRC) causes more initial wear till it warms up to operating temps. They had uoa results from cold engine cold oil, cold engine hot oil, hot engine hot oil, and hot engine cold oil (draining the oil after 20 minutes (?) of startup running.

The hot engine hot oil and cold engine hot oil tests showed the lowest wear levels and the cold oil (hot or cold engine) showed significantly higher wear.

Max

Kudos.

 

[Gary in Sandy Eggo]

Originally Posted By: Brian Barnhart
Originally Posted By: Gary in Sandy Eggo
Run a considerably lower viscosity oil, and most of the wear will start taking place where none took place before, and that's at operating temperatures. Viola!!! Most of the wear no longer takes place at start-up. It now takes place after the engine's warmed up.


If that were true, engines on a constant diet of 5W20 should be showing significantly more wear than those on heavier oil. Since that certainly isn't the case, it brings the validity of the quote above into question.

It isn't????

 

[Cyprs]

Originally Posted By: cmanser
With the new synthetic 0W-xx oils you get the best of both worlds though. The 0W at start-up and then at running temp you get the 20 - 30 - or 40 weight.

Seems like oil is getting better and better and able to meet tougher demands placed on it.


I agree, take my 0-30 HDEO XD3 choice, quick flow and great visc, I feel safe with that in my extreme climate of up to -45F or C. I have a pour point of -45 and Visc of 12.2 at 100C.

 

[glennc]

I have come to question the maxim of most wear occurring at startup. In UOAs we don't seem to see any real difference between oils on the basis of inferred number of starts. I used to take that as gospel but since finding BITOG I have a hunch it's not even close to true with modern engines and oils.

- Glenn

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
The hot engine hot oil and cold engine hot oil tests showed the lowest wear levels and the cold oil (hot or cold engine) showed significantly higher wear.


Then the vital component must be hot oil (heat). Otherwise, lower visc oils would show radically less wear than heavier oils. They simulate hot oil sooner.

..and what was deemed significant?

 

[glennc]

I am curious about the magnitude of the difference. For example if start-up miles cause 50% greater wear per mile, it is a relatively small consideration. On the other hand if start-up wear is higher by many multiples, say 5x or 10x the wear per mile, it would be pretty significant for most of us.

I think the statistic I always heard was something to the effect that "90% of engine wear occurs at start-up." If true and if start-up miles are 1/10 of miles driven then you would need to have start-up wear at ninety times the rate of warm-running wear. Just to put some numbers to it.

Yet we don't seem to see huge differences in UOAs that would account for.

 

[Brian Barnhart]

Originally Posted By: glennc
Yet we don't seem to see huge differences in UOAs that would account for.

Not seeing a difference in UOAs could be telling us that the UOA isn’t a suitable tool to accurately measure start-up wear. On the other hand, if the UOA is an accurate gauge of start-up wear, it could be saying that oil weight (within reason) isn’t a major factor in start-up wear.

0WXX and 5WXX oils flow easier at lower temperatures, make starting the engine easier, and improve fuel economy. But where is the data/study that says they reduce start-up wear over a 10WXX, a 15WXX, or perhaps even a straight 20W?

 

[JAG]

From this thread, http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=924463#Post924463, I quote the first post in it by AEHaas that discusses the SAE paper. I am not endorsing his opinions or theories on lubrication. Those who know my posts will no better. I'm just quoting it because he discusses the paper. Keep in mind this is starting at room temp (that's "cold" here). Truly cold is another matter. As said earlier, the problem with startup wear doesn't end until the oil is hot...the first few seconds isn't the only high wear period.

Quote:
Fully formulated Synthetic SJ 0W-30, 5W-30 and SL 0W-30 oils were compared to SJ and SL 5W-30 mineral based oils for wear. There were no differences. (This is worth repeating - there were no differences in wear rates between mineral and synthetic based oils.)

Next are the effects of viscosity and oil temperature. Only ring wear was tested as they state it was most sensitive. They compared basic SJ GF-3 mineral oils. The additive packages were the same. The only difference was the viscosity of the base oils. The following grades resulted: 0W-10, 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-40. The HTHS for these oils were 2.17, 2.83, 3.09 and 3.76.

There was no difference in wear rates. The oils were tested at all RPMs and Loads, no difference between oil grades were noted. All the oils had increasing wear rates as the load increased but all increased at the same rate across the board.

Most interesting to me was the way they tested wear at lower, start up, oil temperatures. In a previous study (1) they start with room temperature engines and oil showing the trend of decreasing wear as the engine heated up. In the current study they actually took a hot engine and chilled the coolant and oil from that of the normal operating temperature to a coolant temperature of around 80 F and oil temperature to 70 F. As the temperatures fell the wear increased. It reached the same rate of wear as the 4,000 RPM full load WOT. This was with the load at the minimum level. The fluids were then allowed to heat back up to normal operating temperatures and the wear rates normalized (decreased).

Wear at room temperature oil was 20 times higher than wear at normal operating temperatures. This finding is what closed the article. They stated that this will be the next focus of their upcoming research.



aehaas

(1) Effect of Break-In and Operating Conditions on Piston Ring and Cylinder Bore Wear in SI (Spark-Ignition) Engines, Schneider et al:
The rate of wear is much higher within 15-20 minutes of start-up than after reaching normal operating temperature. There was a lot of data but I conclude that the initial start-up time period (first 20 minutes) result is 100 nanometers of wear whereas the steady state wear rate was only 4 nanometers per hour thereafter. (Hence we should be concerned about start-up oil thickness more than running thickness. This justifies the statement that 95 percent of engine wear occurs just after start-up.)

 

[glennc]

Brian,

To your first comment, if UOA is a good tool to measure wear then how would it fail to measure start-up wear?

On the other, good question. Again, I don't know if there is one, or if they do.

Consider this: We know that some oil film stays on engine surfaces even after the engine hasn't been run for a long time. We also know that various additives in the oil are designed to attach themselves to those metal surfaces, to protect the surfaces even if the oil film is breached temporarily. Could it be that those two factors are sufficient to protect an engine against start-up wear effectively enough that startup wear is no longer a major issue?

If so then it would also seem to imply that the difference in cold flow, within reason, is not all that important either.

 

[JAG]

Originally Posted By: Brian Barnhart
Not seeing a difference in UOAs could be telling us that the UOA isn’t a suitable tool to accurately measure start-up wear. On the other hand, if the UOA is an accurate gauge of start-up wear, it could be saying that oil weight (within reason) isn’t a major factor in start-up wear.

Indeed. Real wear measurements don't use UOAs either at all or do only for supplemental information. Either the radiotracer method or tear downs is the right way.