Ethanol: an inconvenient truth

[63Avanti]

IEEE in their 2005 annual worst engineering ideas issue, declared Ethanol replacing normal gasoline as a terrible idea. The ethanol processing, especially in the newer,"modern" plants, use coal instead of waste plant products to run the plant. It takes the energy equivalent of 1.25 gallons of gasoline to make 1 gallon of ethanol from agriculture crops, using what is universally declared "dirty coal"

It is only tax dollars that makes it profitable.

I am a member of the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE), we are full-blown geek-heads. However, there is a limit when the gag-reflex kicks in.

 

[GROUCHO MARX]

"It is only tax dollars that makes it profitable."
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Yes, we should give the government more of our money to spend wisely.

 

[oilyriser]

I've been testing E10 vs E0 in my snowblower, and have found the E10 makes it almost impossible to start. E10 conducts electricity, which is not very good if you have magneto ignition and it's -15 C outside. With E10, it takes about 8 pulls to get the machine going, and I have to stand there jabbing the primer for another full minute to keep it going, all this time spilling unbuned gas fumes everywhere. With pure gasoline, it takes two pulls, and only one or two jabs of the primer once it starts.

 

[Steve S]

Harder to ignite alcohol when cold.

 

[lewdwig]

I think of it as a temporary reduce-our-reliance-on-foreign-oil thing until we get cars to run on a different technology. (But still lubricated with oil....)

 

[Panzerman]

I think we need to just drill for oil where we havent. seems stupid to leave the oil under the ground and find another source before we are even out.

 

[oilyriser]

Ethanol can be run at extremely high compression ratios in the right kind of engine, making it competitive with gasoline because of better thermal efficiency. When the HCCI motors roll out, E85 might be the fuel of choice for those cars.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Panzerman
seems stupid to leave the oil under the ground and find another source before we are even out.


One day a future generation is going to look at what we did with oil and say "you did WHAT with oil ?...burned it"

Oil makes nearly all plastics, synthetic fibres for clothing, our medicines, and fertilisers.

To simply burn it at ridiculously low efficiencies beggars belief.

 

[SevenBizzos]

I would guess that the incredible waste of time and resources that we know as ethanol has been covered numerous times.

 

[Cutehumor]

I notice more gas stations are posting that they have ethanol in their fuel such as walmart gas stations and mapcos

 

[Rabbler]

If someone can figure out how to grow sugar cane in a colder climate ethanol could be a viable alternative. Until then it's just more wasted energy.
But burning ANY fuel doesn't make sense from an environmental standpoint.

 

[JustinH]

It's 10% ethanol in every pump here in NY, and we have the highest gas prices in the nation.


Double whammy.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Rabbler
If someone can figure out how to grow sugar cane in a colder climate ethanol could be a viable alternative. Until then it's just more wasted energy.
But burning ANY fuel doesn't make sense from an environmental standpoint.


sugar beet grows cold.

 

[Tempest]

Using food supplies to make fuel is just plain stupid. Ethanol is nothing more than a way to justify subsides to farmers and prop up corn prices...which makes everything fed by corn more expensive.

 

[Shannow]

+1

except meat/dairy animals shouldn't be eating corn either.

 

[Kestas]

Yeah, but meat animals taste better when they're finished with corn.

 

[Shannow]

Much better fatty acid profile if they aren't

 

[Rabbler]

I've never heard of sugar beet being used for ethanol production.
It seems like a viable alternative though. I've asked about using beets for ethanol but got no responses.
Corn and wheat seem to be all anyone is interested in trying in N America.

 

[Shannow]

How big is your beet lobby ?

http://healthandenergy.com/ethanol.htm
An acre of corn produces 7,110 lbs corn, and generates 328 fallons of ethanol.

http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/NPP/05-012sum.html
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/meCh2.html

an acre of sugar beet produced on average 77 tonnes of beet, with what appears to be a conversion efficiency of 20 gallons per tonne...1500gal/acre.

Apparently Jerusalem Artichokes are better than that.

 

[Rabbler]

Very interesting.
You certainly have done your home work.
I wasn't aware sugar beet crops need to be rotated so often.
Jerusalem Artichokes eh? Interesting name for a sunflower.

It's obvious now politics plays way too much a role in this industry now that its becoming tied to oil.
I guess EXXON will be buying all the corn, wheat, sunflower and beet farms now.
Assuming they haven been doing this silently already...