Not changing oil

[LuciferCaitiff]

Hi everyone, first post here, I actually have been DYING to ask this question. I've asked people in my prelude forum and all I got were people telling me that black oil doesnt mean it's bad oil. Well yeah, I know that, but that wasnt my question!

I'm sure you all know about changing oil, intervals, grades, etc...I know a lot of it too...but what I really want to know, and I want to hear it from people who know what theyre talking about, is what happens when you DONT change your oil?

The reason Im asking this is because my dad has been bothering me a lot lately about rebuilding his engine...and I don't want to do it. I'm not going to, actually. He doesnt take care of his car. The last time the oil was changed was about 2 or 3 years ago when I changed it for him. I even paid for the oil, filter, and drain plug washer. Now he's upset that his car is overheating and that he thinks hes got a blown head gasket.

Which got me thinking back to the oil...I remember a couple times I've changed it after REALLY LONG intervals that the oil has actually come out looking RED. I know there wasnt transmission fluid in there, because I put the oil in myself. My only guess is that its a result of extreme thermal breakdown (we live in so cal afterall).

It's no doubt that all of the problems he is having is a result of his own neglect. But I need to know, not only to put up a good argument against him, but more importantly, to satisfy my own curiosity and expand my knowledge...so back to my question....

What happens to oil when you just...don't change it? How does the chemical composition change? How does its effectiveness change? What parts of the motor does it effect and how? stage by stage details would be nice, as thorough as you care to be...I really am curious.

thanks guys

 

[Saab9-3]

Do a UOA and see what oil does as it ages.

As for what happens when you dont change your oil, the oil breaks down and your engines seizes.

 

[Vilan]

Not sure that the base oil really breaks down much, unless you have a turbo coking it. But the additives in the oil eventually get depleted. If you search you might be able to find a graph someone posted showing how the ZDDP levels drop over time. And the detergents end up holding all the sludge they can and the rest deposits out in the engine. Kinda like using the same water in your bathtub every day for 2-3 years.

 

[LuciferCaitiff]

aah, good analogy. Maybe I will do a UOA test, just to satisfy my curiosity. I can't imagine anyone on here would have let their car run on the same oil for that long...so this could be interesting for all of us, heh.

 

[dnewton3]

I'm presuming that he, or someone, is at least topping off the oil level? I can't imagine going 3 years without an OCI, yet never needing any make-up oil? In respect to that, when you add oil, even if you don't change oil, you are bolstering the additive package. Your post question is about not changing oil, but more appropriately, I think your question should be about not maintaining the health of the oil. Extended OCI's are not a bad thing, IF you keep the filtration in good standing AND you keep your engine in proper operating condition. Seems like your dad did neither.

One important question to ask would be how many miles is he accumulating in that 2-3 year period.

A UOA is going to tell you all you want to know about the engine oil. After that, there are some inferences that allow you to draw conclusions on as far as the actual engine health. Still - it's a very good tool when you understand the limitations of spectral analysis. TBN is going to be a telling factor as well. If you get a UOA, don't forget to normalize the data for the miles driven. If he ran 30k miles in 3 years without an OCI, then you cannot do a direct comparison to most UOA's, as the typical range might be around 5k miles for most people's UOA's. Make sure you standardize the data for a given mileage marker.

Also, I don't think that poor oil quality neccessarily equates to head gaskets needing replaced; typically, an overheating condition leads to that type of failure. I presume you are inferring that ALL maintenance has been neglected, since the "unthinkable" has occured, by BITOG standards! The reality is that whatever caused the overheating (lack of coolant???) lead not only to the potential head gasket issue, but the overheating of the oil as well.

Bottom line, if you love your Dad, regardless of how silly he might be in regard to vehcile maintenance, just grin and bear it and do the rebuild. If you're anything like me, you probably are the one who drove him nuts in the first place!

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: LuciferCaitiff

What happens to oil when you just...don't change it? How does the chemical composition change? How does its effectiveness change? What parts of the motor does it effect and how? stage by stage details would be nice, as thorough as you care to be...I really am curious.


MY VERY simplified progression of oil death, generically speaking (varies by oil type) and I'm sure there is a better write up somewhere, but I didn't look for it.

1) Oil in normal usage can initially get thinner and then level off, or slightly thicken:
A) VII's and thixotropic thickeners begin to shear
B) PPA- (thinning agents) begin to evaporate
C) Oil starts to collect combustion materials, water, wear metals, old oil residues, dirt ingress to oil stream and crankcase
D) "Plenty of oil life left"

2) Oil reaching end of useful life
A) Viscosity stable, but different from starting viscosity (in some cases thinned or thickened)
B) Depletion of AW additives
C) Depletion of detergents and acid neutralizing additives
D) Wear metals stable, other indicators of dirt ingress and oxidation, nitration rising

3) Oil at end of life
A) Thickening does not level off but continues via oxidation and severe evaporation of sheared components
B) TBN gone, TAN excessive
C) Wear metals accelerating
D) Some level of irreversible damage begins

4) End of engine life
A) Oil passages blocked
B) Lubricant obviously no longer performing intended purpose
C) Seizure, broken metal everywhere
D) Blame assessed - most certainly was that expensive oil or that lousy auto manufacturer or that stupid oil mechanic or the ripoff oil change place or some relative or friend.....owner completely innocent

 

[Johnny]

dnewton3, well written.

Pablo, that pretty much sums it up.

I might add, remove the valve cover and take a picture for all of us to see. After 3 years I don't suspect it to be very pretty.

 

[LuciferCaitiff]

Thanks dnewton. That's great advice. I think im gona do the UOA just to see whats up. I told him that before I'll work on his car, he needs to get a car that's easier to work on than a prelude. They're the worst hondas to work on...I know because I have 2. So...if he gets an old civic DX or something, I'll fix it when he destroys it.

You're right, he has been adding oil, and was adding water until I told him he was a moron for putting JUST water in his radiator. Now he keeps a quart of oil and a gallon of 50/50 coolant wherever he goes. That only proves that he cares enough to limp his car to work and back every day.

Someone on my prelude forum posted up this yummy link : http://video.aol.com/video-detail/what-happens-when-you-dont-change-your-oil/191088559

30k miles sounds about right, he's been driving it a lot less because of all the problems he has...and the odometer (and speedo) stopped working a couple years ago, so its stuck at 309k, I can only guestimate on the miles driven since then.

I'm definitely going to do a UOA on my own cars, maybe I'll do one on his one day when I can move my car out of the garage. I'll definitely post the results!

What about the oil turning red? It cant be tranny fluid, I know he's not a complete idiot (just a partial idiot). But I HAVE changed the oil on his car and had it come out red.

edit: Thanks Pablo! and lol johnny, i will when I get a chance!

 

[PT1]

Maybe he topped it off with ATF figuring "oil is oil"

 

[LuciferCaitiff]

Nah, I've watched him top off with 10w-30. He's not that dumb, he better not be at least...or else I'm going to disown him as my father.

 

[dnewton3]

Johnny brings up a good point that made me think of something you might consider trying.

Now, the H20 pump, if it needs replacing, is only able to be fixed by replacement. And if there is a head gasket leak, there really is only one remedy for that as well.

But ... if you find some significant sludge and such after pulling a valve cover, you might just give Auto-RX a try, before deeming a whole engine rebuild necessary. In other words, you might be able to get away with just pulling the head and replacing the gasket. I presume it's a 4 cylinder, in which case the top end should be easy to access.

With 309k+ miles, what do you have to loose? Time may be the biggest cost to you. Worst case scenario, you replace a head gasket, then run some ARX, and later decide you have to do a total rebuild anyway. You're only out the cost of some small gaskets and a bottle or two of ARX. Sometimes the small fix is the appropriate choice when the life potential of the rest of the vehicle is somewhat limited. How's the tranny? Those kinds of things would play into my decision before I just went whole-hog into a total rebuild. A top-end head job might be a very good "least cost" option that gains another 100k out of it, with the help of ARX.

 

[LuciferCaitiff]

Auto RX...thats a good idea if the sludge is outa control...which I'm sure it is. The tranny is gone. The clutch is beyond gone, it was dead 4 years ago, now you cant even drive the thing up a hill anymore. The tranny itself needs to be rebuilt too.

I think im gona to the UOA and pull the valve cover just for kicks at this point. Not sure that it's even worth trying to save. I think he should just give the car away and buy a car I might be willing to touch

the auto RX is a really good idea, when I do get to it...I'll run it through.

 

[hominid7]

If the radiator fluid level is continually going down and a blown head gasket is suspected, isn't it possible that antifreeze is being mixed into the oil? Very very dirty and sludge contaminated oil could possibly create some form of rust/red mixture, especially if the radiator is also rusted out.

I'd change the oil and flush the radiator and see what happens. Sounds like trouble is in your future to me though.

Remember, no good deed goes unpunished.

Good luck.

 

[lars11]

is that oil in the video actually bright in color?

 

[-Clayton-]

My wife's friend came over and asked me to look at her car cause it had been overheating. Well being the nice guy that I am I also checked her oil while I was there and it looked like rust, This stuff was NASTY. I asked her when she last changed the oil and of course she replies never. I told her to get it done ASAP, 3 months later and it still isn't done and I doubt it ever will be.

But I had never seen rusty red oil like that in my life and it stunk horribly, The car will probably die soon.

 

[Panzerman]

You could offer to change it for her, about a week later it would blow up and she would think your the cause. Better off to stay on her at this point and try to explain to her the importance of the oil change because of the appearence of the oil. I used to change both my sisterinlaws oil because they would neglect it like you said, when I met my wife, she had a Z24 and it had been 34,000 or something since her last oil change. A single woman would be the last person, I would want to buy a used car from.

 

[Steve S]

Originally Posted By: Panzerman
You could offer to change it for her, about a week later it would blow up and she would think your the cause. Better off to stay on her at this point and try to explain to her the importance of the oil change because of the appearence of the oil. I used to change both my sisterinlaws oil because they would neglect it like you said, when I met my wife, she had a Z24 and it had been 34,000 or something since her last oil change. A single woman would be the last person, I would want to buy a used car from.
Ditto

 

[-Clayton-]

Originally Posted By: Panzerman
You could offer to change it for her, about a week later it would blow up and she would think your the cause.


That's exactly why I didn't offer to do it, If she regularly maintained it I'd have no problem offering to help her out.

 

[LuciferCaitiff]

yeah, good input everyone. My dad's sorta like that too. I tell him to just do the work himself if he knows so much about cars, but he looks at his hands and says "I'm a chef, I cant go to work with dirty hands"...I show him the box of latex gloves that I use for my own hands and get no response.


When I DO touch his car, he thinks I'm a master mechanic and I have nothing better to do with my time. He also seems to believe that both of my cars are in perfect working order and I have NO reason to not let him drive one of mine. It's the same way with his computer too. Let's just say that I've got some pretty good stories.

There's a reason you shouldnt just do something nice for everyone. Some people....you have to let them tread water on their own, hoping that eventually they'll learn to swim. I'm making up for it by giving him extra money for utilities though...

 

[chet2]

hilarious...my bro in law, my late dad, best friend and others are almost same....change oil every 30,000 or just keep adding oil or not and yet their engines keep running, but with some damage...most people here overanalyze oil and there are some who dont give 2 f---s about it and their cars still run...i could never understand people who arent attentive to something expensive like a car...i have valv full synthetic in my sunfire and at 5300 miles on oil i am chomping at bit to change it...will wait to at least 7k though..i knew a wood mill owner who kept his truck running 10 hours a day, 5 days a week and engine still runs with 190k on it, w/ probably 500,000 miles of idling..amazing..i would never do that to my vehicle...it was a 97 GMC...my best friend had a ford ranger and he didnt change oil last 50,000 miles on truck, just added when it started knocking...truck had at least 150k on it wwhen he got rid of it...my in laws camry had 28k on oil and was 2 qts low when i checked it, he put some in...car is louder but engine has 190 k on it