50% shear at first 66 miles

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Hello all,

I'd like some opinions if any. I recently bought a new bike (Honda Rebel 250) and noticed the gears were perfect until 60 miles when they became intermittently hard to shift. I smelled the oil on the dipstick and the gasoline fumes just about knocked me out. I had the oil analyzed and Blackstone claimed I had a 2% fuel dilution that sheared the oil from a 10w-40 to a 10w-20.

My theory is the thinned out oil maybe causing the sticky shifting. Either way, Honda says the 2% dilution and shearing is normal.

Any opinions?
 
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I wonder if you might have a stuck float/excessively high fuel level in one/both of the carbs - Do the carbs angle down towards the engine, for if not that would mean the fuel would instead run back into the air cleaner rather than intake. If the fuel petcock does't have a vacuum valve that prevent flow when the vac signal from the engine isn't present and it's functioning properly, this would lessen the likelihood of this being possible as well. A simple test for finding the float level that I use to do was to attach a clear piece of tubing to the nipple at the bottom of the float bowl and curve the other end up along side the carb so that it extends higher than the bore. With the fuel on (assuming the fuel will flow without a vacuum as it's safest to do this with the engine off), loosen the bowl drain screw. Fuel will flow into the tube and level itself with the level in the bowl. Said level has to be below the bore and as was the case for me, below the bowl gasket/mating surface.

Perhaps the fuel content in the oil is due to the fact that it's a new engine, and the being that it's not yet wore in, it's getting a lot of blow-by.???.

Now that your dealer knows your situation, I myself would check the levels in the bowls, also seeing if they change over time (leave the hose in place and drain screw open for short period as to see if the float valve is fully able to cut-off fuel flow). Change out the oil and filter (try a 20w-50 if temps allow?), and likely keeping the rpm's within the OE's limits for break-in, I would give it some loading with compressive deceleration, similar to that mentioned around here, with a short period of cool down between each on-off set. After say 50 sets, shut the engine off and check the oil.

Good luck and ride safely/"defensively".
 
That much gas in the oil in 60 miles is indicative of a serious carb problem. If "Honda says the 2% dilution and shearing is normal", "Honda" is full of beans! You need to take your new motorcycle under warranty to a Honda stealership that knows something about the products they sell and, supposedly know how to service.

Then change the oil.
 
Hey guys, thanks for your responses. Your points are well taken.

I took the bike to the only two Honda dealerships in my area. The 1st one stonewalled me and said there's nothing wrong with the bike. (I'll skip the details). I left it at the the 2nd dealership who apparently tested it and found no problems. I took it home after that and rode it for 5 or so minutes with no problems only to take the bike out the next day and have the shifting problem intermittently return like before.

But a new development happened. I filled the tank with gas and some of it came out of the overfill tube from the carburetor. I just called the 2nd dealership this afternoon and they said if gas came out of the overfill tube, it had nothing to do with filling the tank with gas. But I told the guy that it only happened immediately upon filling the tank. He said I could bring it by, but this dealership has a TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE reputation with the exception of one mechanic who is out indefinitely due to knee surgery.

Another side note is neither dealership actually recognize the Blackstone analysis or seem to care about how strong the oil smelled. The 2nd dealership simply said theoretically, a 2% dilution & shearing is normal. But what I'm sensing from the dealerships is that they really don't feel like bothering with my bike.

At this point, I'm tempted to bring it to an independent mechanic, but I'm not sure if this a good idea. On the other hand, given their lack of concern, do I really want these dealerships and their $8 an hour mechanics working on my bike?
 
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Can you set the float height by yourself?
A shop manual is worth lots.
There are sites dedicated to Rebels with some great folks. They can help you through any sort of mechanical issue you may encounter.

I find half the fun of motorcycling is working on them myself.
 
Does the carb(s) have an accelerator pump? If it sat on the floor a while and a few people sat on it and twisted the throttle while yelling "Vroooom!" it could have put quite a bit of fuel in the crankcase that way.

I'd change the oil and retest in another 60 or so miles.
 
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Jaybird: I do have a shop manual, but embarrassingly, the more involved tasks are not real clear for a novice like myself. I'm also a member of the rebel250 forum. A LOT of great people on that site as you said, but I find more involved technical writing the most difficult to understand without hands on experience. I could probably do it, but right now I'm a little raw from the whole issue and the principal that the dealership should respond.

Chris: Only I've touched the bike and never twisted the throttle while not operating. I did change the oil recently, have accumulated 60 miles exactly, and now plan to send another sample to Terry Dyson of Dyson Analysis.

What I'm concerned about now is any damage that may have occurred due to the shearing and possible continued shearing after I changed the oil.

Thanks for your input fellas.
 
Sorry to hear of the dealers lack of concern and disrespect.

Keep us posted, and don't be afraid to ask questions, especially of the how-to sort (where all here to learn/help). Bounce what answers you get from this vast WWW resource off the manual...and good luck!
 
May I suggest that you get back on the bike and get it through its break-in period. Change the oil every 200 miles or so, using the cheapest oil that meets specs. Get the (engine) temps up and keep them up by riding for longer periods of time. Hot oil will be able to expel any moisture or fuel.

By changing the oil frequently you will minimize the chance of any damage from viscosity break down. But, there is a good chance your situation will improve as parts seat themselves in.

Motorcycles with shared engine/transmission lubrication are deadly hard on multi-viscosity oils. That is why I use a 15W40 HDEO (Rotella) and change it every 800 miles or less, and change the filter on every third or fourth change.
 
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Paul: Thanks for the suggestion. I plan to do that after I figure out why it's spitting out gas from the overfill tube when I fill it.
 
If you have gas running out the carb overflow the float/needle is sticking or the float level is set *way* too high. After sitting in the showroom for a while before you bought it, dirt in the carb isn't unreasonable. Then again being new it may not have ever been set correctly.

Some fuel system cleaner or Marvel oil in with the fuel may clear it up if it's just a dirt problem. If not, someone needs to clean the carb up by talking it apart and make sure the float level is set properly...
 
Been awhile since I messed with a carb like this, but I can at least help you get this started.

rebel_carb.jpg


More than likely you have fuel spilling from the two orange orifices. This would be indicative of the float not being set correctly or dirt clogging things up.

The carb will come off with a little work. Remove the throttle cable, and then the two clamps holding onto the breather, and the engine intake. A little finagalling and it should come out.

Once you get it out, take out the 4 screws that hold on the float bowl to the bottom of the carb. Set these aside, and plan to take them to the hardware store and switch them with Socket Head Cap Screws before you button everything back up. The original screws are Phillip head, and made from cheap materials. They will become wallowed out after a few (maybe just one) carb removals. Best to change them out first thing. Makes thing so much nicer in the future. (remember these are metric sized)

Your float (26 RED) is pivoting on a small pin (27 RED). There is a small valve on the float (25 YELLOW) that can stop the fuel from flowing into the carb if the float is set at the proper height. When you have the carb out with the bowl off, the manual will give you step by step instructions for setting the float to the proper height. This will most likely be done with the carb upside down.

While you are there, you want to clean things up real well. Any fuel left in the carb for very long can create a varnish that can clog these orifices up real easy. Sediments from the tank can also find their way to the jet holes.
Usually you can take carb cleaner and spray the whole thing out real well and this will take care of things. But you may want to actually take the jets out and make sure there are no obstructions in the (23 BLUE) and (24 GREEN) holes.
Do not soak your carb in anything, and do not leave the carb cleaner on things a long time like overnight. The solvent can attack the seals after a long time.

There will also be detailed instructions on how to set the pilot screw (22 LT BLUE). Be sure and set it properly.

The slow jet (23 BLUE) controls fuel into the cylinder at slow speeds, and if you often ride in the city with frequent stops, this being too large can create an overly rich fuel situation. There are numbers on the jet that designate size. Make sure you have the proper slow jet according to your manual. It is a safe bet that you can go down one size of the slow jet and not hurt a thing, and most likely help things a bit. This little unit has a flat slot on top and comes out easily with a screwdriver. Be gentle with them both in and out.

Be very certain that the needle jet holder (24 GREEN) is free from obstructions. It probably screws right out.

It all looks very intimidating, but is not that hard once you delve into it. Something that can be done in under an hour and will probably save you $300.
 
Originally Posted By: jsharp
If you have gas running out the carb overflow the float/needle is sticking or the float level is set *way* too high. After sitting in the showroom for a while before you bought it, dirt in the carb isn't unreasonable. Then again being new it may not have ever been set correctly.

Some fuel system cleaner or Marvel oil in with the fuel may clear it up if it's just a dirt problem. If not, someone needs to clean the carb up by talking it apart and make sure the float level is set properly...







I'm no expert, but wouldn't a float set too high actually allow less fuel into the bowl?
 
Originally Posted By: undergroundnotes
Wow Jaybird...Thanks for all the info. You went way above and beyond. I'll give it a try.

Yes indeed ... Jaybird went the extra mile on that. Very nicely done.
 
Leaky diaphragm in a vacuum petcock can leak fuel into the motor? also if the bike has some emission's stuff like a vapor canister, hoses may be hooked up wrong or the cannister might be wet with fuel.
 
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Quote:
I'm no expert, but wouldn't a float set too high actually allow less fuel into the bowl?

If the float is not allowed to rise very much with the level of incoming fuel, then it is possible to starve the engine at open throttle positions, as there is not enough reserve fuel in the bowl to keep up with the demand.

On the same note, when the float is allowed to rise too high with the incoming flood of fuel, the level in the bowl can be higher than the overflow tubes, allowing the overage to escape via that overflow. If there is an obstruction to the floats action, or an orifice is clogged up, the fuel flow will never stop seeking level in the bowl, and will continue to flow out the overflow tube as a result. (envision a running toilet that has its float stuck)

Guys, I don't consider what I offered up as going over and above. I am simply giving back to the board. It has provided me with countless hours of reading enjoyment, and enlightened me in the process. And as I am not a money contributor, I feel it is only fitting that I give what little I can back to this site.
My contributions seem very minuscule, to the contributions of others here. But, I will say, thanks.
 
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