Glazed walls

[vacuum_6]

No dude I get it. I’m investigating all possible avenues prior to pulling the engine.

This is the reason I subscribed to this forum…hoping someone just might have an easy answer. Yeah I know nothing is easy but hoping.


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[doitmyself]

Good response, vacuum....this is an equal opportunity "dish it out" site.

Quest, your perspective is as good as any. But.....why does a company like John Deere specify in their owner's manual about ONLY using their special break in oil for the first 100 or so hours and specifically stating that use of their Plus 50 oil might prevent proper break in. At my local dealers they even have the "anecdotal stories" of re-built engines that never seated due to the use of Plus 50.

Anecdotal being the key word in my story. I don't trust JD's opinion much, but is there some rhyme or reason for their believing that the selection of oil type could affect break in vs. your theory that only "bad machining/honing" is the culprit?

I don't think this issue is black and white.


Vacuum, 700 miles still seems like it's too early to draw a conclusion.

How about a bore scope(correct terminology?) to see what's going on inside your cylinders?

 

[Quest]

That's alright vacuum, I tend to have my days too.. *grin*

doityourself-

There are some differences between JD and automotive engines in terms of fundamental engine designs and such for JD line of agricultural equipments tend to be a bit of lower output/conservative/older designs with lower power output-to-displacement and also older technologies and such. Older engine designs can tolerate older API grade motor oils better than high heat/higher power output modern automotive engines (again, IMHO).

I also factored in the common "practices" of engine "soupup" jobs which is, raised oil pressure than the factory intended for this has been one of the biggest "mysterious" oil burning issues in modded/blueprinted engines mistakes that many modders made.

Hmmm..what else can I think of? oh yeah! low tension oil control rings perhaps? i've seen this happened to some short block high power output 350 that lead to oil burning issue as well...

Again, not to offend anyone but 750 (or past 1000kms), rings should have been bedded in comfortably already. Anything else would have to be re-visited or investigated in greater details.

Boroscope is a good start and so does wet/dry compression testing.

Q.

 

[Gary Allan]

Now before anyone spanks me ..I could only get through the first few posts on what was done here...

Let me throw my $0.02. Now surely contemporary machining techniques on the OEM level, couples with material finish (etc..etc. all the stuff we say now) has provided superb "no special break in" driving ..but Homer's machine shop may not be in the OEM class (not that Homer is a dope ...but..).

I've seen no reference to cycling the engine through higher cylinder pressure to vacuum throughout a decent range of rpm for a mile or two. It doesn't have to be done @ WOT ..but a healthy throttle, taken into the upper power band ..then coasting under a closed throttle to the lower end has always been a favored technique EXCEPT for contemporary assembly line engines. The larger reman outfits may be there too. And the individual build may be using something like no gap rings ..PerfectSeal or whatnot.

Anyway, I can't see how if anyone reported one quart of consumption during the first 750 miles that anyone would say "That's garbage. Take it back!". It's just more unusual these days and almost unheard of in a "common passenger car that rolled off an assembly line".

That is, what if you heard this 15 years ago? Would it have been a lousy rebuild? That engine would probably go on to have zero consumption.


Or can even individually remanufactured hi-per engines just be driven like common passenger cars and be broken in "just like that"??

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Or can even individually remanufactured hi-per engines just be driven like common passenger cars and be broken in "just like that"??


Nope, certainly can't.

Guy I used to work with who built lots of engines used to despair that the cams, bearings and pistons shared a common lubricant and supply.

To help the cam during break-in, all sorts of fancy friction reducers are used, and the engine held at moderate revs no load for 20 mins.

During that time, the rings aren't loaded and would rather be being cycled through operating pressures with not as much additive.

He reckoned that there was a fine line between protecting the cam and glazing the bore.

Breaking in on a dyno would be the thing IMO. Hold the good rev range, but load/unload the rings.

 

[Oilgal]

I learned some more good stuff here on BITOG!

Thank you all.

 

[Quest]

Folks are absolutely right indeed.

Piston rings on a fresh (off the assembly/rebuilt) engine shall be loaded in order to break in properly. That's what I would typically use as the "whipping" breakin mode: accelerate under WOT acceleration from 40miles to 60miles, under moderate rpm then snap the throttle closed to create vacuum and let the engine decelerate down to 40miles, and then WOT again to 60, and cycle this way for 20 times. This method has helped me in breaking in all kinds of engines, from chrome rings to moly coated rings and never once has it failed on me. I currently have a Mazda B3 block past 110kkms on the rebuild job and still runs like new (sold this engine w/ the festiva body to a friend of mine 8 yrs ago).

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
"whipping" breakin mode: accelerate under WOT acceleration from 40miles to 60miles, under moderate rpm then snap the throttle closed to create vacuum and let the engine decelerate down to 40miles, and then WOT again to 60, and cycle this way for 20 times.


The colloquial expression that my instructors had for this was "shine 'em up ..and oil 'em down" and was exactly as you describe in the Perfect Circle "Doctor of Motors" clinic film.

I think that they had to do a work around for this on the manufacturing level (which they have). Can you see 10's of 1000's of new car owners crashing cars because they attempted to do this? Our population doesn't have the capability of performing this procedure without mishap. I'd expect some would find creative ways to screw this up.

Naturally, this is after you do a 20 minute (or whatever the cam-man says) fast idle deal for cam break in.

 

[jamesn]

i refer to this as the "monday morning sparky effect". i used to be a QA person at a lab. one of our zero-tolerance aerospace clients went to a ISO9000 RFID/etched barcode tagging system for all of their parts. you could track it down to the individual person running the machine and the second that the part was produced. we spotted trends that pointed us to never want to fly in an airplane that was built with monday morning/friday afternoon parts. even the best employees with the best QC and failsafe mechanisms make mistakes. saying "it can't be the....." is the biggest mistake you can make. tear it down and have a look. there is no replacement for a physical inspection. your engine is only as good as the single dumbest guy runing the single least important piece of equipment at the place it was built. there is a reason that all Ferrari, AMG, and Z06 corvette engines are traceable back to the individual tech that built them.

or, maybe you live in a city that has somebody with a bore scope that you can use to snake through the spark plug hole and have a look at the cylinders themselves. you might be able to spot the oil oxide or another problem. its worth a shot.

my personal thought is that you may have run very lean during breaking and overheated the engine and cooked the oil. it happens.

or, they either used mis marked rings or the wrong rings entirely on your pistons. i would think its the most likely reason for your problem.

 

[doitmyself]

Chrysler still mentions this technique, somewhat, in their owners manuals: "While cruising, brief wide open throttle acceleration, within the limit of the law, will contribute to a good break in".

 

[kilgore68]

Take a look at this article

Cylinder deposit

 

[My442]

I have my rebuilt engines broken in on an engine dyno. The dyno shop uses the "beat the snot out of it" break in procedure where they go from low to high RPMs over and over to seat the rings.

The last 3 engines I did came back with zero oil consumption.

 

[sprintman]

Bon Ami powder was the way we used to fix glazed walls in the carb engine days.

The Universal Cleanser
This one was told to me by the proprietor of a Mackay automotive engineering works, a man well respected in the trade. In the late 1960's he was an apprentice motor mechanic with the local distributors of British and European cars. The first of the six cylinder 109 Land Rovers in the district had been sold by them. The new owners soon brought them back, complaining bitterly about blue smoke and horrendous oil consumption. Cylinder heads were lifted on a couple of them revealing glazed bores and the only remedy the firm could think of was a light de-glazing hone and new rings.
The more of these sixes they sold, the more it began to look like an epidemic. Rover Australia were contacted and it seems that it was an Australia wide epidemic of near-new, smoky, oil guzzling 2.6 litre Land Rovers.
Eventually the solution came in the form of a technical bulletin from Rover HQ. There was something wrong with the bore finish on these engines and if they were treated gently, as owners of new cars tend to do, the rings would never bed in and the bores would glaze. Owners should be instructed to give them plenty of welly in the first few hundred miles.
The official fix for those vehicles already affected was as follows:-
Remove the aircleaner. Start engine and set to a fast 1500 rpm idle.Take a tablespoon full of Bon Ami, a popular household cleanser and slowly tap the powder into the carburettor throat over a period of fifteen minutes. Put everything back in place and take the vehicle for a brisk test drive.
The bulletin was most insistent that it should be Bon Ami cleanser. Ajax or Jif would not do.
My informant swears that this story is 100% true and that the fix did, in fact, work exactly as advertised.

 

[Cujet]

Aircraft engines require an agressive break in procedure. If not done properly, they will consume oil forever!

Interestingly enough, a fairly coarse hone job, steel barrels (factory Lycoming are nitrided, hard!) (others are not), Chrome rings, forged pistons, all work well for thousands of safe hours after a full throttle break in!

Remember that aircraft engines have very high cylinder pressures. So, even though your car engine makes more HP per cu/in the aircraft engine may actually have higher internal pressures! They also produce high power levels for long periods of time. Quite unlike a car engine.

I am in favor of agressive break in for nearly all engines, after a few minor heat cycles. An exception may be very precise motorcycle engines that run extremely high stress levels due to RPM's in the high teens. In this case, caution is necessary. The minor friction loads of new parts can break connecting rods that are already at the limit.

Chris

 

[Thatwouldbegreat]

I once saw a show in Chevy V8's in the late 50's that had a similar problem and there were fixed with Bon Ami

"Of interest to those of you with a bent for automotive history is the =
fact that the Bon Ami that bimwads are so fond of for windshield =
cleaning, had another very important automotive use many years ago. =
In the 1955 model year Chevrolet introduced its famous smallblock V8 =
in the 265in. version. The early production run used oil at the rate =
of 200=AD300 miles per quart. It was found that this was due to an =
incompatibility between the honing pattern and the piston ring =
material. The official factory fix communicated to dealers was to =
slowly dump a box of Bon Ami down the carburetor while the engine was =
running. Seems the Bon Ami helped to polish the cylinder bores, =
providing a better seating surface for the piston rings and =
dramatically reducing oil consumption.

It is wierd to think of what happened to the Bon Ami that got past =
the rings. Chevy didn't start using a full flow oil filter until =
1957! Aparently no problems.
"

 

[Rick20]

I would try running ARX. If you go over to the ARX site and look at the test on the Harley V-twin motor that had a very poor initial break in. In very short order compression shot right up to spec. It sure gave the V-twin a second chance on break in.

Add a full bottle of ARX and drive it like you stole it.

 

[vacuum_6]

Thanks for the information. I'll try ARX or similar product and keep you posted.

 

[Oilgal]

There is no product similar to ARX. It is truly in a class by itself.

 

[mechtech2]

I have seen and worked on hundreds of engines at various wear stages .
I have seen degrees of wear, but NEVER any deposit coating on a cylinder wall causing it to be glazed. I NEVER saw anything but a thin film of normal oil where the piston rings rode.
Google doesn't work on cars for a living, I do.
Piston rings and lands will gum and carbon up and not seal right, but that is not cyl wall glazing.

 

[Falken]

http://www.redlineoil.com/techinfo_faq.aspx

Q: Can I break-in my engine on Red Line motor oil?
For peformance engines, we recommend using conventional 10w30 motor oil to ensure proper piston ring seating. We recommend using this oil in combonation with our Engine Oil Break In Additive, which features the antiwear chemicals necessary to protect valve train components like camshafts, rollers, and tappets. Though most conventional oils are missing the important antiwear components that you find in Red Line's synthetic motor oils, the conventional oil is not as slick as Red Line and will allow the piston rings to seat more quickly. If you allow 1500 to 2000 miles in a street engine or 20 to 30 minutes on the dyno at low rpm, the rings will have had sufficient time to seat and the high initial break-in wear will have occurred. For new road cars, always follow the manufacturer recommendations and initial oil change recommendations for break-in.