Studs on winter tires

[c502cid]

Capri, using the same facts though, you can also conclude that you should be aware when not using studded tires in icy road conditions (which many of us in the country face often in the winter) because icy driving traction performance parameters, and more improtantly safety, are compromised.

 

[D-Roc]

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Just so we have the most accurate picture:

Studded tires do indeed have decreased dry traction, less of a decrease in wet, non-hydroplaning traction(but a decrease nevertheless), no change for hydroplaning, a tiny improvment for pure snow traction, but a tremedous improvment in pure ice traction.

All this was documented decades ago when studs were first introduced. I doubt if I can find the source documents, but the easy way to remember how this works (.....well, it's easy for me, anyway!) is that the studs partially support the tire and do not allow the rubber to penetrate into the pavement as far (and, of course with less force). So any property that depends on the rubber penetrating into the macrotexture of the pavement is going to be adversely affected - and that's dry traction, and non-hydroplaning wet traction.

But since most folks don't use most of the capablility of a tire's traction - especially dry - most of the time the decrease in traction is undetected. The only time it would be detected would be in an emergency situation - and at the end of the situation the vehicle operator would be wondering if better traction would have avoided the situation or not - and of course, it would be almost impossible to tell.

Just for the record, I am not saying don't use studs. But I am saying, be aware there is a compromise that is made when studs are installed, and dry and wet traction are among the performance parameters compromised.

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I hear you on that- so here is what I have. 2006 Dodge 3500 Diesel truck, just bought Nokian Hakkas LT.
We do get a fair amount of ice in the winter- but we can also go weeks on dry roads and also have the occasional slushy wet roads midwinter.
So, would it be in my best interest to get them studded? Bottom line is that I probably spend more time on dry good traction roads than icy- with occasional trips to British Columbia through the mountains making the conditions somewhat equal. They are still new and can still be studded anytime.

 

[c502cid]

If they have been driven on, even a couple of miles, most shops will not stud them at that point due to small gravel getting in the stud holes so be aware of that. Are they just your winter tires, not to be driven year round? If they are, get them studded! You will never go back!!!

 

[1sttruck]

I tried to ge some Hakka LTs a few years back for my Dodge 2500, but none of the shops could get any so I got some studded Cooper M+S. They've served me well but I'm very interested in hearing how the Hakka LTs do.

Once you leave the shop no one will stud the tires as small rocks can get into the stud holes.

I prefer studs as with a heavy vehicle you need all the help you can get during the winter. I still carry chains even with the studded tires, and have had to use them.

 

[c502cid]

Hey I just changed from the Cooper M&S on my 3/4 and one ton Chevy 4x4's because I thought they were a little squirrly at higher speeds due to the heavily siped center section. I changed over to the BF Goodrich Commercial TA traction, studded them up, and I'm ready for winter. Faily reasonably priced for a HD tire. Worth a look if you are in the market.

 

[D-Roc]

They have not been driven on as of yet.

 

[Camu Mahubah]

When I leave work at night I drive over an overpass about a 1/4 mile away...lots of other employees are either in front me or behind me...with All-season tires I could not get up the over pass one night and had to stop half-way or go over the side...others decided to pass me...it was a little hairy to say the least...having to back down as traffic cleared...then I got studded snow tires for that car the next week...never had that problem again...Studded snow tires should be used if you encounter severe winter driving condidtions...Safety...but if you do have 'em remember to use extra caution when you happen to get behind the wheel of a car that doesn't have them...sometimes I would jump in my other car which didn't have em and find out real quick the difference in stopping times...

 

[Jim 5]

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I hear you on that- so here is what I have. 2006 Dodge 3500 Diesel truck, just bought Nokian Hakkas LT.
We do get a fair amount of ice in the winter- but we can also go weeks on dry roads and also have the occasional slushy wet roads midwinter.
So, would it be in my best interest to get them studded? Bottom line is that I probably spend more time on dry good traction roads than icy- with occasional trips to British Columbia through the mountains making the conditions somewhat equal. They are still new and can still be studded anytime.

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Studded tires blow the non-studded out of the water in snow and ice based on the performance of the studded Winter Nordics vs. unstudded blizzacks.

I'm not sure if studded tires are legal in BC, just so you know, you might check that first if your travels take you there fairly often.

 

[D-Roc]

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I hear you on that- so here is what I have. 2006 Dodge 3500 Diesel truck, just bought Nokian Hakkas LT.
We do get a fair amount of ice in the winter- but we can also go weeks on dry roads and also have the occasional slushy wet roads midwinter.
So, would it be in my best interest to get them studded? Bottom line is that I probably spend more time on dry good traction roads than icy- with occasional trips to British Columbia through the mountains making the conditions somewhat equal. They are still new and can still be studded anytime.

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Studded tires blow the non-studded out of the water in snow and ice based on the performance of the studded Winter Nordics vs. unstudded blizzacks.

I'm not sure if studded tires are legal in BC, just so you know, you might check that first if your travels take you there fairly often.

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I already checked, and to my surprise you could run studs in BC from 6 Oct to about 3rd week of APril IIRC. Long time...

 

[y_p_w]

I know studs are legal anywhere in California between Nov 1 and April 30, and the time can be extended if conditions warrant it. The Sierras sometimes encounter freak snowstorms in September or May. Studs aren't acceptable in place of R2 chain requirements, although an AWD/4WD vehicle with M+S tires (at least 6/32" tread depth) can drive in R2 conditions without chains; you're supposed to carry them though. I've taken my WRX to Tahoe and Yosemite during R2 conditions, and always had a Caltrans worker or park ranger check the tread depth of one tire and wave me through.

http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/roadinfo/vctires.htm

 

[jmacmaster]

CapriRacer said:

"Studded tires do indeed have decreased dry traction, less of a decrease in wet, non-hydroplaning traction(but a decrease nevertheless), no change for hydroplaning, a tiny improvment for pure snow traction, but a tremedous improvment in pure ice traction. . . . the studs partially support the tire and do not allow the rubber to penetrate into the pavement as far (and, of course with less force). So any property that depends on the rubber penetrating into the macrotexture of the pavement is going to be adversely affected - and that's dry traction, and non-hydroplaning wet traction".

If studs keep the rubber from gripping the hard surface of dry pavement as much as the rubber would grip dry pavement without studs, then the same thing should happen with studs on an icy road, because both dry pavement and an icy road are hard surfaces. Yet, studs increase traction on ice. In fact, as CapriRacer says, stude provide "a tremendous improvement in pure ice traction". So I conclude that on ice, the rubber grips as much as if there were no studs. I still say that its a myth that the studs make the rubber stand up off the pavement to some extent and that if you look at a studded tire on a vehicle the rubber is solidly planted on the pavement and is on the pavement just as much as for a tire without studs.

 

[y_p_w]

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CapriRacer said:

"Studded tires do indeed have decreased dry traction, less of a decrease in wet, non-hydroplaning traction(but a decrease nevertheless), no change for hydroplaning, a tiny improvment for pure snow traction, but a tremedous improvment in pure ice traction. . . . the studs partially support the tire and do not allow the rubber to penetrate into the pavement as far (and, of course with less force). So any property that depends on the rubber penetrating into the macrotexture of the pavement is going to be adversely affected - and that's dry traction, and non-hydroplaning wet traction".

If studs keep the rubber from gripping the hard surface of dry pavement as much as the rubber would grip dry pavement without studs, then the same thing should happen with studs on an icy road, because both dry pavement and an icy road are hard surfaces. Yet, studs increase traction on ice. In fact, as CapriRacer says, stude provide "a tremendous improvement in pure ice traction". So I conclude that on ice, the rubber grips as much as if there were no studs. I still say that its a myth that the studs make the rubber stand up off the pavement to some extent and that if you look at a studded tire on a vehicle the rubber is solidly planted on the pavement and is on the pavement just as much as for a tire without studs.

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I think CapriRacer's point was that the effect of studs on dry pavement is small.

They key to studs is that they dig into and anchor the tire on the ice. They probably do slightly reduce tread contact with ice, but that's got to be more than offset by the fact that the studs are digging into the ice. Think about it. Imagine you've got an ice axe and a large sheet of ice. Swing the axe until it breaks into the ice. Once it's firmly anchored, it's not going to move. A tire stud should do about the same thing, but on a smaller scale.

I haven't tried using studded tires, but I have tried walking on ice before. I've used these things call "Get-A-Grips" that fit over shoes, and contain six carbide "cleats" (or studs) in strategic locations. I can hear a crunching sound as the studs bite into the ice. As long as I don't lift my feet, I won't move laterally because the studs are anchored in the ice. After I've lifted my feet, I can see where the studs have dug into the ice.

 

[D-Roc]

I am still undecided as of yet due to the amount of dry roads we can encounter here in the winter. We can sometimes get wet roads before, during, and after the cold snaps as well. It can get pretty slushy.

 

[jmacmaster]

y p w said:

"The key to studs is that they dig into and anchor the tire on the ice. They probably do slightly reduce tread contact with ice, but that's got to be more than offset by the fact that the studs are digging into the ice."

Well then, if you accept that theory (which I don't), the studs will also dig into and anchor the tire on dry pavement, and if the studs slightly reduce tread contact on the dry pavement, that would be more than offset by the fact that the studs are digging into the dry pavement. So studs would increase the tire's traction on dry pavement.

 

[y_p_w]

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y p w said:

"The key to studs is that they dig into and anchor the tire on the ice. They probably do slightly reduce tread contact with ice, but that's got to be more than offset by the fact that the studs are digging into the ice."

Well then, if you accept that theory (which I don't), the studs will also dig into and anchor the tire on dry pavement, and if the studs slightly reduce tread contact on the dry pavement, that would be more than offset by the fact that the studs are digging into the dry pavement. So studs would increase the tire's traction on dry pavement.

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Ice is very different than dry pavement; it breaks more easily. Studs will bite/break/chip/dig into ice and leave little holes that prevent lateral movement of the studs. While studs probably do cause a little wear on pavement, I don't imagine that they consistently crater tiny little anchor points on pavement, like they would on ice.

I go back to my example of the shoe traction device with the little carbide cleats that I wore last year in Yosemite. I walked on them on ice and on pavement. I could see the little holes where they crushed the ice. I could hear them make this click-click sound on pavement or granite, but there were no holes dug into the pavement.

 

[D-Roc]

Thing I don't like is that I feel there would be a decrease in traction on dry pavement and also increased braking distance-kind of worries me.

 

[Jim 5]

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Thing I don't like is that I feel there would be a decrease in traction on dry pavement and also increased braking distance-kind of worries me.

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I don't buy it at all. If you look at surface area taken up by the perhaps 5-10 studs in the contact patch on pavement, I'm guessing they decrease the amount of rubber on the road by no more than 1%. I'll give up 1% of dry traction for what feels like 100% more snow/ice traction any day. I just don't think it's an issue at all, but that's just my opinion. In my view, the only issue is the noise.

 

[D-Roc]

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Thing I don't like is that I feel there would be a decrease in traction on dry pavement and also increased braking distance-kind of worries me.

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I don't buy it at all. If you look at surface area taken up by the perhaps 5-10 studs in the contact patch on pavement, I'm guessing they decrease the amount of rubber on the road by no more than 1%. I'll give up 1% of dry traction for what feels like 100% more snow/ice traction any day. I just don't think it's an issue at all, but that's just my opinion. In my view, the only issue is the noise.

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Then you have extensive driving experience with studs? Have you noticed a difference in dry road braking and/or traction?

 

[1sttruck]

Kind of like regular tires not providing as much dry traction as slicks, so they're a problem right ? (ignoring how slicks might do in the rain).

 

[y_p_w]

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Thing I don't like is that I feel there would be a decrease in traction on dry pavement and also increased braking distance-kind of worries me.

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I don't buy it at all. If you look at surface area taken up by the perhaps 5-10 studs in the contact patch on pavement, I'm guessing they decrease the amount of rubber on the road by no more than 1%. I'll give up 1% of dry traction for what feels like 100% more snow/ice traction any day. I just don't think it's an issue at all, but that's just my opinion. In my view, the only issue is the noise.

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Then you have extensive driving experience with studs? Have you noticed a difference in dry road braking and/or traction?

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Even CapriRacer (whose reputation on tires is pretty good) claims that the difference on dry pavement is minor and probably not detectable by most people who don't use ten-tenths of the capability of their tires.