You can't afford it?

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For me it's mostly the convenience factor. I'm just not fond of having to order a commodity like oil. I prefer being able to pick it up at a local store whenever I need some. And the market leader's price is about what I'm willing to pay for synthetic oil.

So, who's more stingy? The guy who buys $1 dollar dino oil, or the guy who refuses to pay more than $5 per quart?
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I know when I say it I can not afford it. I am usualy makeing a statment based on marginal return and opertunity cost. You also have to rule out extended drain. If you want to keep warranty intact you had better stick to the right maintence schedule!! I have to change my Camrys oil every 5000 miles or 4 mounths wich ever comes first. I doubt that I will see a huge difference over 36,000 miles between Redline and M1 in terms of wear. I will see a $39 dollar increase in oil cost for 3 oil changes useing Redline compared to M1.

I am still going to try Redline in my Camry but things do change when extended drains are not an option.
 
quote:

Originally posted by moribundman:
I'm just not fond of having to order a commodity like oil.

M'Man,

We forgive you for referring to engine elixir as a "commodity."
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[ July 31, 2003, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: pscholte ]
 
quote:

M'Man,

We'll forgive you for calling engine elixir a "commodity." [Wink]

Yeah, I knew someone would bite.
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At least oil in the US is not (yet) a luxury item like in Europe.
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quote:

Originally posted by MRC01:

quote:

Originally posted by Mystic:

It does not look to me that Redline would break the bank.


I think the real question is one of value. You pay 4.5 times as much money for Redline, but it lasts twice as so you pay 2.25 times as much for it.

But does it make the engine last 2.25 times longer? No. Does it add any extra performance? No. Is the UOA going to be significantly different between dino changed at 3k and Redline changed at 6k? Maybe.

So for the average driver considering purely the value side of this decision, the question boils down to: is it worth paying twice as much for oil, in order to have the convenience of not having to change your oil as often?


There is the value of time to consider too. I maintain 3 vehicles that get driven about 30-40K miles a year total.

If I can run synthetics and go 10K per change, it 's 4 or 5 changes per year. Dino oil at 3K will let me be underneath my low car or removing the skid plate from one of my my grubby trucks 13 times a year.

It's an easy choice for me even if its' not cheaper...

[ July 31, 2003, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: jsharp ]
 
Looking at the amount of money we put in the other end of the car... the gas tank, makes expensive oil seem cheap.

Having said that, I'll admit I'm a frequent dino oil changer by choice. Gunk accumulates in the oil and the only way to remove it is by changing the oil often. Just the way I see things.
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quote:

Originally posted by Patman:
The price differential is much higher in Canada though.

One quart costs between $15 to $17 per quart up here, so if I change my oil 4 times per year at $15 per quart, it'll cost me $380 for that one year's worth of changes. If I run it in my wife's car too, then it's a total of $518.

If I run Schaeffer Oil or Castrol 0w30, it costs me between $200 to $230 for the entire year for both cars.

So in my case, it's a HUGE price difference!


I'm only 4-5 hours away from where Patman lives and the cheapest I can get Redline for is $20.00..
so its even more expensive.....my .02c
Jean
 
Mystic

Your basic point is well taken. Most folks will spend thousands on a car for extra goodies and then worry about a few $ a year on oil. I just don't get it. Like you, I live in CO. To me the cold start flow during winter is worth the price. During the summer, I like the use of less VI improvers, so less shearing of the VI under stress in mountain driving. So it seems like a win-win for synthetic considering the cost of a new car or engine replacement.

Changing the oil myself, make it a no-brainer, IMO.

[ August 01, 2003, 02:17 AM: Message edited by: Fillherup ]
 
Mystic, I made a MS Excel spreadsheet which computed the cost of oil changes over a year and you could change the input variables such as cost (both oil & filter), drain interval, miles driven each year, fuel economy increase (if known), price of fuel, etc … and I pretty much came to the same conclusion that you did. Regardless what type of lubrication maintenance you decide on, the difference is likely to be $10 - $30 per year (assuming YOU do the work) which is peanuts when you consider the cost of keeping a car on the road these days including insurance, fuel, other repairs and replacements, depreciation (big number!), etc … Most cars probably cost $2,000 - $3,000+ per year if you’re good and honest about identifying and counting costs. Compared to that number, even $50 “extra” is insignificant.

Matt89, I think you have a point about spending a “little extra” on virtually everything adds up and may not significantly improve your life. Still, when it comes to my vehicle I abide by the “cheap insurance” principle and would either spend a little extra on a premium oil (one I know is actually better) or use a more mundane oil and change it more often.

I know there are stories out there of people torturing/abusing/neglecting their car’s maintenance and getting away with it. But I want my car to run like it’s new … even when it has 80,000 or more miles on the clock. Not just start and run … but run strong … good compression, little or no valve recession, no loss of lift from cam wear, etc …

--- Bror Jace
 
The spreadsheet approach is a good idea. Look what happens when you substitute Mobil 1 for the Redline in Mystic’s scenario--some pretty interesting figures pop up
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:

5-qt. Dino X4= 20.00
4 filters........= 20.00
0 mpg svgs...= 00.00
Total...........= 40.00

5qt(jug)M1 X2 = $37.76
2 filters.........= $10.00
1% mpg svgs.= -$12.00
Total.............= $35.76

Using synthetic gives you about a 1% savings in gas mileage. The same driver who normally gets 20.0 mpg would instead get 20.2 mpg.
Doesn’t look like much, but it adds up over the course of a year.

Yup, the numbers don’t lie. Read ‘em and weep dinosaur fans!
grin.gif
When you figure the 1% gas savings on a $1200 gas bill, that’s an extra $12 to be subtracted from the Mobil cost, bringing the total down to $35.76--that's $4.24 less total cost than using the “cheaper” dino!!
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[ August 01, 2003, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: Rexman ]
 
Bror;

I agree with what you are saying, and my personal preferences fall in line with yours.

I'm just acknowledging that it's not neglectful or irresponsible to follow the appropriate (to the conditions) manufacturer's maintenance schedule - we'd all be better off if everyone did at least that. This in answer to Mystic's original question - everyday people who don't care to spend extra $ to maintain "like-new" performance from their vehicles (until they rust away or become too much of a P.I.T.A. to operate) should not be cajoled into buying the "cheap insurance" by the parties that have the most to gain financially.

Until someone can prove with (vehicle longevity data) that the run-of-the-mill maintenance practices and oils we have now are not sufficient, then I have a hard time telling a "non-enthusiast" that they need to pursue any maintenance regimen that costs them more (in time and/or money, depending on their circumstances). In other words, for a "non oil-nut" (i.e. not people like us who actually think about what kind of crap is depositing itself on those pristine metal surfaces, or what wear metals are being scraped off at any given time) using top-tier oils is a bad call unless they have the stones to leave it in long enough for the costs (in time and money) to break even. But still most people brag how they got a whopping 5 or 6K miles out of Mobil1...

Equally bad is blindly following the 3K/3 month plan for people who don't really need to, because they have been programmed to do so by Madison Avenue.

People who care about their cars tend to let their emotions drive their vehicle maintenance plans (myself included!). And this is what keeps the cash flowing.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Rexman:
The spreadsheet approach is a good idea. Look what happens when you substitute Mobil 1 for the Redline in Mystic’s scenario--some pretty interesting figures pop up
gr_stretch.gif
:

5-qt. Dino X4= 20.00
4 filters........= 20.00
0 mpg svgs...= 00.00
Total...........= 40.00

5qt(jug)M1 X2 = $37.76
2 filters.........= $10.00
1% mpg svgs.= -$12.00
Total.............= $35.76

Using synthetic gives you about a 1% savings in gas mileage. The same driver who normally gets 20.0 mpg would instead get 20.2 mpg.
Doesn’t look like much, but it adds up over the course of a year.

Yup, the numbers don’t lie. Read ‘em and weep dinosaur fans!
grin.gif
When you figure the 1% gas savings on a $1200 gas bill, that’s an extra $12 to be subtracted from the Mobil cost, bringing the total down to $35.76--that's $4.24 less total cost than using the “cheaper” dino!!
freak2.gif


Interesting REx. one question though. Can it be quanitified that synth will net you about 1% MPG increase? If its possible to objectively confirm this has fact then that changes things dramatically.
 
Rexman, I found to be true as well. Mobil 1 on sale or heavily discounted and 6,000 mile intervals was cheaper than typical dinos at 3,000.
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Matt89, I guess we're in agreement then. For the average person, 3,000 mile changes (especially with today's oils) is a bit of overkill. The manufacturer's recommendations (especially their severe service schedule) is good enough for most people. And, it's the marketing people who shamelessly market even their synthetic oils as to be changed at 3,000 mile intervals.
rolleyes.gif


joe4324, I had heard that the SAE put out a paper on synthetics & fuel economy gains ... but I never read it, just got the info second hand. Actually, I've seen the differences in oils (I keep track of every mile I've traveled and every gallon I've gas I've bought with my last couple of cars) but it's not a scientific study. However, fom what I've seen, 1-3% gain in fuel economy is a reasonable/believable number.

--- Bror Jace
 
Bror & Joe--Amsoil advertises a 2-5% gain, but there are so many variables in day-to-day driving, most other oil makers shy away from making any claims.
They don't want a raft of litigation from some owners who might say they never saw any gains in mpg, when their driving style and/or faulty record keeping might have prevented seeing an improvement.
It's a can of worms the oil companies really don't want to open, but I think it's pretty well established that synthetic gives you at least 1% better mpg because of its better friction reducing properties over conventional.

[ August 01, 2003, 03:53 PM: Message edited by: Rexman ]
 
I won't get into crunching #'s for longer syn runs vs shorter dino runs, everyone has to decide what they can or can't afford, what they're willing to pay for oil, filters, or anything else. For example, while the K&N & Mobil 1 oil filters may be excellent, I refuse to pay $10 & up for an oil filter. So far,
Yet I'm willing to pay more for BobZoil than I would for good OTS dinos, like Pennzoil, Castrol, & Chevron. Is BobZoil(Schaeffer) really that much better? I think my UOA's speak for themselves. Your opinion may vary.
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The fact is, when you consider how much money we put in our gas tanks, the cost of oil changes is just a *small* percentage of fuel cost. After payments, at today's prices, most of your $$ goes into the gas tank. Makes my position on oil filters look kinda silly, huh?
 
quote:

The fact is, when you consider how much money we put in our gas tanks, the cost of oil changes is just a *small* percentage of fuel cost. After payments, at today's prices, most of your $$ goes into the gas tank. Makes my position on oil filters look kinda silly, huh?

Maybe, but you've got to draw the line somewhere. It's the only thing stopping them from charging $15 for those filters.

Matt
"Follow the money"
 
I would be willing to pay even UP TO 1.5X the OTC synthetic's prices for a "better" synthetic...eg. Euro stuff. But, no more. This would put it at about $12 Can./L.

Redline, on the other hand is $18-20, meaning $160 (8L)+ OEM filter ($20) + 15% tax / oil change is a little out of hand.

Anyone know what the Amsoil prices are in Canada?
 
quote:

Originally posted by Dr. T:

Anyone know what the Amsoil prices are in Canada?


I emailed an Amsoil rep in my neighborhood (he lives near Winston Churchill/Thomas St.) and he quoted me a price of $36 for 4L of the ASL 5w30. This was last year.

If you're going to buy Amsoil though, do it through one of our reps here. I believe you can order through them and then pick it up yourself at the Amsoil warehouse (which is near the airport, just off Derry Road just west of Airport Road)

[ August 02, 2003, 05:19 AM: Message edited by: Patman ]
 
It seems to me that if you're a person who questions whether or not using synthetic oil makes sense, then maybe it doesn't make sense, for you.
I've been in love with cars since before I could drive. And that was a very long time ago! They're a source of great pleasure to me. A hobby really. I love high performance cars in particular, and I actually enjoy changing the oil, as well as washing, waxing, and otherwise maintaining them.
To me, there is simply no question about it - I want to use the very best oil for these vehicles. I do think that something like Redline is overkill for the average family sedan though. I think you have to evaluate the vehicle in question. How long do you plan to keep it? How do you drive it? I usually use Mobil 1 in all of our cars except for the "high performance" vehicles, particularly turbo models. I use Redline in those. In some of my older high mileage commuter cars that are worth very little, I often use Castrol GTX non-synthetic. Even I can't justify synthetic in some vehicles.
But I truly feel that an oil like Redline will hold up better under the extreme heat and high rpm's of a performance turbo engine, especially when it is driven hard.
So many people out there today, even the ones driving Porsches, Vipers, and Corvettes, don't give a **** about the details of maintaining their cars. They just drop it off at the dealer, and have it taken care of. The type of oil used? Who cares. And many of these vehicles are only leased anyway, so why should they care about the oil used? The car will be someone else's problem 2, 3, or 4 years from now.
Right now I drive my car 15K to 20K miles per year. It holds 5 quarts of oil. I use Redline and change it every 5K miles. At $7/qt. plus $5 for a filter, that's $40/per oil change and $120 to $160 per year. That's not alot of money to spend on something that you really care about, in my opinion. So I'm paying a premium of $15 per oil change (over Mobil 1) to use an oil that I feel is the very best available. For the peace of mind alone, it is worth it to me. At 7000 rpm under full boost, I like the idea of superior film strength, and better high temp. stability.
I say, use whatever you're comfortable with. Chances are, your engine will hold up fine with any of the oils available out there. If I suddenly lost all interest in cars and viewed them only as an appliance, I doubt I would continue to use Redline, as it would no longer be worth it to me. If my financial situation were such that I was struggling just to provide food and shelter for my family, I certainly would not be using oil that costs $7/qt. But I wouldn't be driving a performance car then either.
Sorry for the rambling thoughts, but the bottom line I'm trying to make is; It's not necessarily a black and white issue as to whether or not a particular oil is "worth it". As with most "premium" products, whether or not they are worth the added expense is debatable and depends on the individual circumstances.

[ August 02, 2003, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: harrydog ]
 
Something is "worth" whatever that person is willing to pay for it. I agree with Mystic, if $50-$100 is breaking the bank for yearly oil changes, then I'd suggest getting another job. If you have a good car and want it to last, putting higher quality syn. lubes in it is a good practice and it helps keep peace of mind.

Do you realize how many people go to Jiffy Lube and pay $26 for an oil change? Ridiculous. I can do it myself and spend a little over $20 and use Amsoil or Mobil 1.

[ August 02, 2003, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
 
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